Art,

While I appreciate your efforts to increase the awareness of youth multihull sailing, your website seems like a thinly veiled promotion for the SL16 Class.

There are links to the SL16 site and class rules prominently displayed on the left menu.

The "2007 Events" menu selection is non-functional and should, at the very minimum, list the Hobie 16 Youth Championships to be held in Geneva, NY this summer.

In fact, the word "Hobie" does not appear anywhere on your website.

When you acknowlege the efforts of the Hobie Class Association's youth programs and initiatives, I'll be more willing to send you a check. Until then, I'll support my own class' youth programs.

Matt Bounds
Editor
Hobie HOTLINE

Matt,

Perhaps you could flesh out the Hobie 16 junior program.

What is the goal?

What kind of schedule is there for juniors?

What clubs have programs?

How many kids?

Where are the kids going on to as they grow up?

How does the 16 junior program mesh with existing US Sailing programs?

How does the 16 junior program fit in with the international junior programs?

Could you speak for the class and explain what is the official or unofficial relationship between US Sailing Olympic Development program and the Hobie 16 Junior program?

Do you have the support of Bodie and Bremer?

What does their support (or lack their off) look like?

Do you think that the coach ( Bodie) will be supporting the junior sailors at the 16 junior nationals by actually coaching ... or err... getting a coach for the sailors?

Do you think the coach will be supporting the 16 junior talent in getting a shot at the top tier of collegiate sailing? (eg... letters of recomondation)

Will they be setting up mentoring programs so that the 16 junior sailors have access to senior sailors who have been there... done that and can peer advise?

Do you think the coach has an alternate program for high performance sailors et.. the 16 junior kids considering that the college circuit is for laser and 420 sailors only?

Now... I can guess at the answers that Bodie and Bremmer will give you... But I also don't know how the Hobie junior program addresses these many programatic issues.

The dificulty we all face is trying to figure out what resources we have, what is the program, what resources do we need.

In fact... we probably need to clearly state the goal... Two extremes... If its develop the next generation of recreational catamaran sailors... then we have one kind of program... If its develop elite sailors for international competition... We have a different set of issues.

I didn't expect a warm reception on this forum regarding this Mark, but perhaps you should ask Art these questions. After all, he's the one that has held himself out as "The North American Youth Multihull Association". I never said that the HCA's Youth Program was the be-all, end-all of youth multihull sailing in North America.

As for the HCA Youth Program, it consists of:
1) Grants to youth HCA members to enable participation in national / international events. This will facilitate several teams attendance at the 2007 H-16 Youth North Americans in July and the 2007 H-16 Youth Worlds (Fiji) in October.
2) The conduct of the 2007 H-16 Youth North Americans. They don't happen by themselves.

This does not take into account the various programs run by local Hobie Fleets, like the Hobie Fleet 84 / HCA Division 7 Youth Regatta in August.

Can you name another catamaran class that does this?

I didn't think so.

I will repeat my statement - I'd be more willing to donate to Art's cause if it wasn't so blatant a promotion of the SL16 class. If Art wants to tap into the Hobie masses, he better acknowledge the existence of more than his own show.

BTW, the best youth multihull sailors in North America aren't from the United States. They're Guatemalan. What's Art's plan for connecting with them?

I think its a blatant promotion of the SL16 class since thats the ISAF youth multihull for next year (or is it this year? I can't keep track)



So, does this mean that, if Art manages to throw in "hobie" every 15th word on his website, that means that youth teams on the SL16 can participate in HCA events? No? You don't say?

So we X classers (SL16's being in the X Class) can't get in your sandbox, yet you demand to be in theirs!?!?

MauganN20 this tack is not helpful... The adults can dick around with the hobie edict one more time but its a moot point, and more importantly... not the point in this initiative.

The goal is develop a YOUTH Program to develop elite multihull racers. (hopefully this is not in question)

Fact... most of the junior sailors have access to Hobie 16's.

Fact, ISAF and the world are moving to spin equiped cats and choose the SL16.

Fact... nobody is going to do this job for us.

Fact... one more argument over the size and shape of the table for the peace talks WILL result in failure.

Matt.. we cannot afford another pissing contest over the equipment used. We have too few resources in terms of clubs and adults. Our impact on the larger world of internatonal sailing has been small and if US Sailing has their way... our voice will be irrelevant.

How can we adapt the 29ner program for cats using Hobie 16's and Sl16's and get a program going around the country that actually going that holds together, gets noticed by the Olympic coach, and gets the big yacht clubs to take notice and support us?

Tad, as Mark pointed out, your juvenile response is counterproductive and misses the point entirely.

If you are going to hold yourself out as the "North American Youth Multihull Association", you need to encompass all catamaran youth programs, and not blatently promote a single class.

Matt,
I told Art the same thing, that the web site looks too much like sales promotion for the SL 16. And you are right that the the site should list the Hobie youth events in their event schedule.

It is important that we all work together to provide as many youth multihull events, clinics, etc. as possible, no matter what kind of cats they are on.

NAYMA should not be identified with one particular class of boat.

I also asked Art about the North America name and whether other countries are included or just US sailors. His answer did not satisfy me, even though he said the organization is just for US sailors.

I agree 100%. A pissing match will get us nowhere. The days of 100-200 boats regatta all over the country when I started in 1979 will NEVER happen again no matter what we do. WE must do everything we can to get the youth involved or it won't matter what boat we sail, we WILL just all get to old and won't sail any boats. That is why I started my grand daughter sailing with me since she was 6, now 13. Next season I will start with the 7 year old twins. Had the girl out already in 18 knots and she LOVED it. We must band together and put all our (WHO HAS THE BEST BOAT) BS to bed and work together as a group. That is why I now trying to setup the 5 SL-16's coming here for a round robin race and clinic. PLEASE guys, let put egos aside and band together.

Just my 2 cents. Comments welcome.

Doug and Ashleigh Snell

I think the answer is we must support ALL Youth Multihull programs: Hobie Cat Association, Internation Hobie Cat Association, US SAILING Youth Multihull Programs, North American Youth Multihull Association, NAMSA, your local Community Sailing Centers, and Yacht Clubs.

Our multihull program at Sail Sand Point in Seattle has taken seven years to develop. We now have five Waves and six Hobie 16's, all donated with no expenditure of capital funds. We have expanded from just a storage facility to sailing classes and programs including the Waves in youth cruising camps, and open sailing to now include classes for youth and adults on the Hobie 16's. This has all been done with the direct support of our local Hobie Cat Dealer, Hobie Cats Northwest (now located at SSP) and all our local Multihull Sailors. Yes, we have mulihull sailors that sail and own ALL types of multihulls including the larger tri's and cat's.

Art brought the US SAILING Fast and Fun program to Seattle in 2001, then back in 2002. This helped get our programs going. His goal is do similar programs with NAYMA, to promote new youth programs in new areas. The target areas will be areas that do not have established programs or facilities with current youth multihull programs.

Our local volunteers trained and supported three youth teams from SSP at the recent US SAILING Youth Multihull Championship in California. They all had a good time, and a life experience they will never forget. The youth teams will continue to compete in our Monday night races at SSP, and Hobie Cat regattas. At least two of the Youth sailors will continue to be US SAILING certified instructors at SSP, on both monohulls and multihulls.

This is how you build and support Youth Multihull programs.

Caleb Tarleton
SSP,HCA, US SAILING,NAMSA,NAYMA,and anyone else that promotes Youth Multihull Programs.

Caleb,

How do you suppose you would you integrate the SL16 into your program?

Since you have not bought boats in the past ... this might not happen for a bit... but if you had a boat... What could you do with it?

Perhaps its the immediate plum for a team training on a H16 to move up to? The top team gets to practice with the new toy on the next training day... (chutes are very cool Hell the 420 has a chute... why can't we! We promise not to run over any other junior sailors..)

Perhaps... a fleet of SL16's are available to the Hobie 16 sailors who have proven their skill previously for a weekend regatta?

What might you have in mind?

Mark/Caleb:

This is what Arthur sent to me. We are working on the local yacht clubs to put something together. I am sure he would do the same for any of you if contact him right. We ALL need to work together.

Hi Doug:

I didn't see your response because it was at the end of the message, sorry. Anyway you wrote:
So how many boats? What kind? When will they be in our area? I need more
info
1. We have 5 new Sl16's in the tractor trailer for your event.
2. We are open to schedule events to what ever is the best sailing weather in your area. Your decision and coordination is necessary with other clubs in
the area.
3. Our plan is to have you invite as many sailors as possible that sail catamarans, laser, 420's, 29er etc.
We will have round robin racing for two days with a clinic maybe Friday evening/Sat morning. Get kids familiar
with the new boat and then race as much as we can through Sun afternoon.
4. You might have to house and feed kids. Kids don't have cars and can't stay by themselves in a hotel. You can expect kids to come from other areas
so airport runs might happen as well. Dallas comes to mind as an example. When kids find out this is in Texas you will see them flying in.
5. You should collect a $250 damage deposit just like they all do now for their 420 Vanguard regattas.
6. Charge an entry fee and we propose $100 each kid. That breaks down to $50 per day each for use of the supplied boats. Kids/parents are used to paying these kids of fees and more.
7. Get sponsors to help offset the regatta costs.
8. We will supply round robin computer scoring unless you already have that.
9. We need to offset the cost of fuel for our tractor trailer so we are asking for your committee to plan for maybe 20 kids/10 teams.
This would bring in $2,000 which we should get $1,500 to pay for our cost to get to Huston. We would hope for more because that doesn't really cover it so if
sponsors are interested , that makes it better. We are trying to be cost neutral but don't expect that to happen for several years.
As the program grows we will have more interest therefore more revenue and more venues.
10. We are getting regatta insurance to cover liability which is a must for a kid program.

So you need to figure out a venue, time to hold the regatta, supply kids, PRO,judges, marks, chase/safety boats and all the stuff associated with having
a great time sailing .I know it all sounds like a big deal and it is but the fun and exposure is well worth the effort.

Best regards,
AJS
310-245-0614

Well why don't you or your fleet DONATE some H16s then to his cause. Put your money were your mouth is.

I posted earlier on this forum that we are starting a sailing school on h16s and there wasn't the slightest bit of interest. It seems a lot of people on this forum want to either ignore or else start attacking others who are actually getting off their butts and and DOING something to get kids into cat sailing.

Mark, let me respond this way. We will probably not be adding SL-16's to our current program at SSP. We are very happy with our current inventory of Waves and H-16's. BTW, four of the Waves were new, donated from various groups, the first being our local multihull sailors. The H-16's are being repaired and upgraded by our local multihull sailors, most have H-16's or experience on this boat.

When our three teams were trained for the US Youth Multihull Champ, they were trained on both H-16's and Tigers. The training did prepare them for the SL-16.

The Hobie 16 and SL-16 are both ISAF Youth Champ boats. The ISAF Youth Worlds will be on the H-16 with spin this year, then SL-16, and back to the H-16 the following year. Our Youth will be racing in local regattas and training for Youth Nationals events. This includes Hobie Cat Youth Nationals, but that is a long way to New York. Our sailors in HCA Div. 4 in Canada also have active growing youth fleets.

The brand of boat is not as important as the support that is generated for the program by the local volunteers and sailors
Caleb

Awesome another new boat to buy, I will just run out, get the money and buy one. I am sure other parents will do the same, NOT! Same old, same old, another new boat, another new year, another reason to keep the kids in soccer.

Sorry I am just so tired of seeing another new boat split the already small fleets. Seems we just can’t learn from the monohullers and stick with the tried and tested, etc. I can bet you in just a couple of years the SL16 will be just another boat of the past, and then there will be a SL16.5, or a F16 youth boat or something, or hay what about an F12, F13, F14, what about a freaking youth trimaran, or what about a kite cat, why even stop here, skies the limit or is it?

Then again maybe the ISAF will just drop the youth multihull all together, which is likely, and then what? Who knows about the Olympics when it relates to the Tornado? US Sailing is surely not behind the multihulls, no surpise there. I have already moved on to ASA and continuing with NAHCA.

My plan is to stick with the H16, Wave (see you at the next Nationals Rick), and NAHCA, and have fun with my kids, and bag the rest.

I'd really be quite curious to see whether some of you would donate to the NAYMA org (aka SL16 class) if it was the boat for the forseeable future and it wasn't doing a square dance with the omnipresent H16 from year to year.

Basically, the way I see it is that you're saying "Screw the kids (when they're not sailing hobies)" in an effort to promote your own self-serving class agenda.

Who knows, next year Art could completely revamp the site into one big H16 billboard to reflect the boat for 2009. Would that change your mind?



Then what does it matter that this new org is pushing the SL16 when its about the kids and not about the boat?



Says who? As I see it, the organization can promote any class he/she/it wants. As long as its supporting youths sailing on something with more than one hull in North America, I think its fufilling its named role. You don't have to give it money though - but I thought it was about the kids, not the boat?

Were the SL 16s donated or purchased? If donated, will Hobie step up next year? If purchased, did the manufacturer cut a deal? Was Hobie asked to participate? If they were, did they offer a discount?

What was involved in the decision making process to use SL 16s?

Donated. The decision to use the SL16 as a youth boat is a complicated one but it involves the ISAF.

I'm positive that Art's motivation is not specifically about promoting a particular boat. However, when a boat manufacturer steps up and makes a large commitment to a cause, such as this one, I imagine it's kind of hard to hide the excitement.

I gave $10 to the Hobie Youth program. Where do I send my $10 to the SL16 youth program. What is a SL16? I'm too lazy to google it right now.

Looks like a slightly modified 5.0 with a kite. I read somewhere that the minimum crew weight is 90kg. Is that possible or just wishful thinking? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

From Art's Letter:

(emphasis added)

If that's not promoting a specific class; trying to sell a specific boat, then I'm George Washington.

Look at the homepage of the SL16 Class (direct link off the NAYMA site - arrow points to the "www.sl16.org" URL):


I call shenanigans. You can call it what you want, Tad, but Art is crusading the cause of the SL16 under the guise of the "North American Youth Multihull Association". There's a name for that kind of deception - fraud.

For tax purposes, I'd like to know the EIN and name of the 501(c)3 organization for which contributions are being solicited. If they intend to collect over $25,000, I'd like to see their IRS Form 990. I'd like to see their taxonomy (the IRS reason they are tax exempt). I'd like to see their mission statement, goals and how they expect to achieve them.

Just so everybody is aware, some of the people in ISAF are not happy with the tactics used by Sirena-Voile (the European mfg of the SL16) to promote their product. For one they keep referring themselves to “preferred”, they are a preferred nothing. They are just on the ISAF equipment list. They are trying desparately to achieve ISAF recognized class status - a request that was rejected the last time they went to ISAF because they couldn't prove their presence in 4 countries on 2 continents.

I prefer to look at a situation with my eyes wide open. There's been (and still is) a political s**t fight between ISAF, Hobie and Sirena-Voile on what gets chosen for the ISAF Youth Worlds. If Art wants to do a promotional roadshow in the United States for the SL16, fine. Just call a spade a spade, Art. Don't blow smoke up my rear end and call it the "North American Youth Multihull Association" - because it isn't. Not yet, at least.