So why cant we get a boat,quite like the Hobie 18, that would be a reasonable weight, say 340-390 lbs, and durrable.

If you can make a boat weight 160 lbs and is realatively fragile compared to the ol Hobie 18. Why not use some of that tech savy and build a boat that is 150-200 lbs heavyier and build to be a real beach cat wth spin and all the nice features.
18', 380lbs and built tough.

Then we would have a boat to last. And proovide some enjoyment.

I think durrable glass beats plastic any day. (Hobie 16/18 proved that).

is this a serious question? Seems like you have just described an F18.

Mike I would recommend a little more research before posting.

I have an f18 Hobie Tiger, thanks for the recomendation, but it isnt a Hobie 18, a boat made for the beach. Your "remark" about reasearch sounds like you want to just bust my chops about a post but I will give you the benifit of the doubt and not assume you are a dick. But if a manufacturer can reduce the weight by as much as they have beeen. could we get a boat that can still be a real beach cat and have the featues of an F18.(I am not sure the Get a way is the answer)

So are you saying your Hobie Tiger is not durable? And it is not a beach cat? I dont understand where you are coming from or where you are heading.

F18 min class weight is 180kg isnt it? That is close around 390lbs. I am sure the F18s are tanks compared to other boats. Maybe you meant this as a reply instead of a new thread? This was already mashed a few weeks ago.

I'm not sure if you can use the "D" word here...<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> but I believe the NACRA 570 and 580 are still available. The 570 will be lighter then the F18 the 580 will be slightly heavier. Also check on G-Cat as they are also availible new. I believe Hobie will stay with the plastic boats for the rental/ resort/
drag your boat in the sand market. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes I love my F18 But it has many creases and dents which a H 18 would not have. What I am geting at why does the boat need tobe so frgile at this weight.

Robi, I would have to agree that the hard raced, 5 plus year old Tigers I see over here are not durable. A lot more dents, holes, deck lifting etc., than the old H 18s.
Not Tiger knocking - Just my experience.

As an occasional poster (but avid reader) on this forum, I'd like to add my .02 There are a lot of us who lurk in the shadows, so to speak, on this forum but don't post often because we're intimidated by you guys who are, by comparison, experts on sailing cats. I know there are many who are heavily into racing, design, etc., and I do enjoy gleaning info (sometimes what little I can understand from my limited experience!) from their posts.

But as for me, I'm just a once-a-week recreational sailor. I've never raced (at least not formally, though we all race any time we encounter another cat going the same direction, don't we?), I wouldn't know where to start on the engineering side of things to design a cat, I've never owned a boat w/ a spin, etc. But I do love zooming along on a reach when it's really blowing, flying a hull, etc.--in short, I enjoy the classic "beach cat" experience. In that limited realm, however, I do still sometimes have questions that arise regarding equipment, technique, "what should I have done" to troubleshoot experiences, or whatever. However, for us less-than-expert sailors, it's a tad intimidating to post our elementary questions when well aware that we're on a different level than the people who post most frequently. Hey, I've posted anyway at times and gotten great help and info over the past couple of years, but I'd still like to make a case to those who are indeed experts to be careful not to stifle the input of newbies. I'm not trying to bust Robi's chops, either--in fact, I've enjoyed his posts very much--but this seems a good opportunity to address a recurring theme on this forum, which is "how to attract new people to the sport." One aspect of that is to keep a "welcome mat" attitude toward the less-than-knowledgeable who dip their toes in to test the waters, so the speak. A little encouragement goes a long way, but so does a little discouragement!

'Nuff said on my rant. Boy, do I feel better now! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, I'm not saying that Mike220 is a newbie, either. He might be an expert, too, as far as I know, although less known on this forum. I'm just using the opportunity to make the point for those of us who are newbies...

BACK ON TOPIC....what about using Kevlar instead of glass to build the "new" Hobie 18 beach cats? (as opposed to a full out racing Tiger) How much more expensive is Kevlar? The Blade can be had with Kevlar, I think the price increase is about $1,000. But does the Kevlar fix the dent, bump and grind issues? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what vintage of a Tiger you have, but the early ones were much more dent prone than the later ones. My F18 has been raced pretty hard and is holding up very well (other than a few manufacturing assembly problems I had to repair). The only dings I have are two spots where I've been hit by another boat.

Kevlar is priced somewhere between fiberglass and carbon. for 38" wide ~5oz material, it's about $16.5 per yard (in my low quantity purchasing supply). Basic weave Carbon (although it's usually wider than 38"...I normalized this price) is roughly $35 per yard. Fiberglass is about $4.50 per yard.

Kevlar may help some - but I don't think it will help too much with the denting issue.

Dents and bumps are usually symptoms on a crushed core due to unexpected local loads (like walking on your knees over the foredeck etc.) A solid glass boat will not have these issues, but a sandwich construction will be lighter and stiffer than monolithic glass hulls. Our Tornado with much paper honeycomb sandwich construction is very prone to dents while a high-density foam will be less exposed to dents. A wood core will not dent at all <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As always it is a compromise, this time between stiffness/weight/cost of construction.

BTW: As Wouter have said many times on this forum (and I guess this is the gist behind Robis initial comment, becouse this have been discussed many times here). A heavier boat does not necessarily have to be stronger/longer lasting than a light boat. A heavier boat see much larger loads on the whole structure, so in practice an 75kg A-cat might last longer than a 200kg boat. It is all down to how the structural design is done and the intended use. Even the Hobie16 need a keel-job after numerous beachings.

Making the first posts might be a bit intimidating, so kudos to everybody who make it out of the closet. It is much easier to ask than reinventing everything yourself. Besides, I guess most here are more than happy to chat about our sport and answer any question about catsailing. It's all part of building a community, just look at the "Tornado replacement" thread and how they search for the magic ingredients to grow catsailing (the solution is of course to build a heterogeneous society where cruisers, fun-in-the-sun, racers and everybody have fun sailing and socializing).

Hey Mike,

I'm no expert, but enjoy reading about boat building so I'll take a stab at this based on what i know -- I think that you most definitely can build a 350 lbs. hobie 18 that is just as durable as the 420 lbs. version. Some people have started to touch on this but here is alittle synopsis of the racing boats construction. Most modern lightweight boats are made with a 1/4" foam core with about 10-15oz of glass on either side of the core (Hobie tiger, Nacra 20, 18 etc...). I would look at two methods to try to build lighter, but just as durable 18.

Option 1. Use a cored laminate for the hulls. I would try something like a 6 lbs/Cu. Ft. balsa core. It is still pretty light and has considerably more compression strength than foam. It is a bit more difficult to work with however. I would then use epoxy resin and S-glass for the laminate (say 3 layers of 6oz S-glass for the outside and 2 layers of 6oz S-glass for the inside). You could also try substituting 1 layer of glass for kevlar, but only on the inside. I would also vacuum bag the laminate to get the resin content down on the laminate.

Option 2 - use monolithic laminate with stringers for stiffness. basically use the method as the original 18, but substitute s glass for the e glass and epoxy for the resin. use about 20% less glass for the laminate schedule is use either wood (cedar), balsa or foam strips to make stringers (both vertical and horizontal) on the inside of the hull. have these covered with the last 1 or 2 layers of glass. again, vacuum bag to get the resin content down.

I think doing either of these methods, you can probably reduce the weight of the hulls by 20-25%. I'm guessing the hulls weight around 120 - 130 lbs. each so you would be getting a weight savings of around 50-65 lbs. I doubt you could get much more out of the hulls without sacrificing durability so I would then look to the rig. replace the tree trunk of a stick with a slightly overbuilt carbon stick and that should give you another 15-20 lbs. This would be a considerably more expensive way to build a boat - materials are about 10-20% more, labor would more for the vacuum bagging and cutting the core/stringers. Either way, a fun question to ponder.

anyone got some Hobie 18 molds we can play with??

cheers.

so now here's the question: Is there a market for a $20,000 Hobie 18 that weighs 360lbs and is built like a tank?

My thoughts is no. tough to justify buying a beachcat that costs as much as a decent car or more than a 18' bow rider, or 3 jet skis, or 1 year of college, or.... you get the gist.

I have a 285 lb dart 18 in my backyard that was built in ~1980. It was deffinitely used as a "beach boat" Prindles and other beach cats were made light but durable.
The question as always is cost.

S glass is very expensive today ~ 6 times the cost of E glass in some cases
Epoxy is 3-5 times the cost of cheap polyester resin. vacum bagging and resin infusion has alot of consumables that are not cheap
Good quality carbon masts are expensive to make.
The bigest variable is labour. It takes alot more skill to build a relaible lightweight boat.

Are people willing to pay the extra costs associated with production?

Eric

How is 390lbs a "reasonable weight" for an 18 foot cat?

There are plenty of ideas on how to construct a boat that could weigh less than the 396 lbs that the Formula 18 class is, but there are rules for class sailing. We cannot use Epoxy in the construction. No, what are considered, exotic materials. You can only use carbon fiber for the boards and in some parts of the hull. You are restricted to using fiberglass and either Polyester or Vinylester resins. Carbon spars are not allowed. It is a very successful "box rule" that allows all manufacturers to be on the same starting line. The expense of the boat is one of the considerations of why the rules are such. Witness the prices of the A-Cats rising just due to the increa$e in carbon fiber.

Mike:
I think that you will see a stiffer platform in your Tiger than you do in the Hobie 18, because of the sandwich construction. A test is to rig boats boats on the beach next to each other, measure the hull widths at the point of the bows. Sheet the mains in and see if the deflections are the same. I believe you will see the Hobie 18 narrow more. Another thing to try is pick up one hull at the bow and compare how much you can lift it without affecting the other hull. Finally look at the volume of the boats hulls. The Hobie 18 was designed and sails best at crew wieght of 285 lbs, while the Tiger (Formula 18) was designed to sail with a crew weight of 330lbs.

Later,
Dan

Mike the boat you are asking about already exists…It’s called a Supercat 17 (min class weight 325#) or if you want a new one an ARC 17 (Min class weight Uni Rig 285# Sloop Rig 300#, w/o sails). The Hull can handle a fair amount of crew weight…is built Ocean tough for use as a “real” beach cat. Has top quality components and is available with a factory designed spinnaker if desired. Sloop comes with self tacking jib, No boards, but points just fine without them.

The older Supercat 17 models have a P# of 73 with stock sails, the new ARC 17 has a P# of 70 in contrast to the Hobie 18 with a P# of 71.4 I would think that the Square Top Calvert Main I have on my 1994 SC17 completely closes the gap on the Hobie 18 P# advantage…if it ever really had one… other than on paper. When Bill Roberts sailed the ARC 17 a few years ago in its debut race (Tradewinds race I believe) he won sailing against boats with much lower P #'s

The ARC’s are using Vacuum bagged high density cores with Epoxy resins in the hull laminate...it’s not just a wish…it’s been a reality since the beginning of 2004.

So if you want a new or used truly rugged beach cat with good performance but without a lot of unnecessary weight, you need look no farther.

Oh by the way…this is my second SC17, I loved my first one so much I bought a newer version of it.My first SC17 was a 1982 model that was flipped completely upside down (by the “perfect storm”, the same one they made the movie about) with the galvanized steel trailer still strapped to it without receiving any hull damage what so ever.
Is that strong enough for you?

Best Regards,
Bob

What does a new ARC 17 cost, with main and jib and double traps?