Still can't figure out why people who choose to participate in a competitive sport, then want to limit competition. I don't have the time or money to buy a Farr 40 and compete with top professionals. I used to race in So Cal and got to learn from and race against the best local racers. Not that he wouldn’t be able to sail circles around me, but actually beat Dave Ullman in one race during the Cal-20 North American's. If you really want to learn to be a better racer, compete and learn from the best skipper's. Prep your boat so it won't break and get out there. Name another sport where "non-professionals" get to compete with the best on any weekend. Why do people want to miss out on this opportunity?

Bruce

Alameda, CA

Hi, Mary,



Seems like somehow I keep coming across like I'm arguing with you - - I have so much respect and gratitude for you and Rick for all you do for our addiction/sport/hobby, arguing with you would be a hard thing for me to do.



I'm trying to explain myself here, not trying to prove anything.



All I meant to say originally was that some people think of a race as an opportunity to harness all their assets, inventiveness, fitness, money (ability to get more $ from others is part of that), craftmanship, and sailing ability - together to put on the very best effort they can mount.



Others think an ideal race is where people test only their boat handling and race-strategy skills, while minimiizing other variables.



I can value and enjoy the effects of both aproaches.



I think our misunderstandinng arose when I cited some races as restricting age, gender etc. I only meant by way of that remark to point out that some folks like to compete against people with *roughly* the same set of physical advantages or chronological experiences. Not to prove this is better, just that this is something some folks like. So call 'em subdivisions, or call 'em 'races' (as I incorrectly did) the fact that you can earn a trophy by outsailing all the other [young/ senior/ women] is attractive to some people, which is all I meant to suggest.



John Williams heartwarming comments about the environment at the Worrell makes me even less likely to be judgemental about "sponsorship" - not that I ever met or heard of a 'sponsored' catsailor I didn't like.



Again, sorry I sounded oppositional.....

Im glad my post resulted in such a great discussion. However it was taken wrong! I am a by the rules kind of guy. If its the rules you disagree with then change the rules!!!!!

It is my understanding that there is to be no advertising on your boat at these events. That is all I meant, it was not to bar anyone from competition.

It takes a great deal of money to be competitive in this sport. It is entirley different than it was 16 years ago when I started. Gone are the days of showing up to a race on a shoestring budget and being somewhat competitive - these new people dont show up to races anylonger, they are too intimidated. Lets not forget our roots, while at the same time promoting our sport. Competition is good period. I am not afraid to sail against anyone just as long as were on the same playing field!!!

The rules DO allow for advertising in most cases, by the way. In the NOR or SIs you will usually find the designation of an event as allowing or not allowing advertising. Rarely these days will you see NO Advertising.

And many folks are not really sponsored -- they often just buy stick-on decals that shows their own company's name and url.

There are a rare few that have landed a good sponsor, but don't hold your breath when trying to find such a fairy god father/mother.

Rick

The high profile cat racing events (nationals, worrel 1000) are essentially open events, meaning no restrictions on the competitors (other then minimum weights). The organizors and the competitors would love it if the best cat racers in the world would attend resulting in a keen competition conducted at a high level of expertise) Everyone agrees with this philosophy (or you don't attend) and the issue of pro or amatur is irrelevant.



Other racers do not have the time, commitment or money to compete at this level. From their viewpoint, it is not a competition to go racing against these guys. Nevertheless, they want that same level of competition... all be it at a much lower level of profciency. This philosophy is a lot fuzzier, constantly shiffting and frequently difficult to pin down. The question is how do you meet this goal.



. How do you preserve these two levels of competition at your local club or regional regattas. Many yacht clubs choose to regulate the competitiors by not allowing advertising. (Many classes regulate competition by limiting the number of pro's driving and racing on the boat) This strategy preserves the competition level for their B fleet racers. Theycall this... maintaing a level playing field and preserving the participation of their members. If the A fleet pro's would like to compete they are welcome... they just need to take off the stickers. Low participation prevents dividing the fleets into A and B at most events.



I don't think we really know if mixing Pro's... ie sponsored sailors or sailors with advertising on the boat with your ordinary weekend racer is good or bad for cat racing. I have never heard a weekend racer refuse to compete against sailors with advertising.... ON the other hand, we don't seem to be attracting new racers who would start at the bottom and work their way up a fleet either. Perhaps there is a connection here.



One other point. Most regattas are now operating with little or no sponsorship.... Perhaps, sponsored teams... (Any advertising on the boat) should pay a premium for entering the regatta since without the event... their sponsor's dollars are wasted. (Flame suit on)



Mark Schneider

Mark -



Are you seriously suggesting that the better the sailor, the better the financing, the higher the entry fee?? Some kind of sliding scale fer Chrissake?



Balderdash - I usually like you posts, buddy, but that suggestion needs to get flushed and the fan turned on. YOU go tell Randy he can't sail in a fleet race because he's got Smyth Sails on his boat - I won't. Why alienate the guys that make this the most fun? Even the Hobie A fleeters didn't get CHARGED for being good... some kind of talent tax - HA!



John

Hi John



No... I am not suggesting a talent tax at all.



The Corinthian ideal of yacht racing is the bedrock of many yacht clubs. These clubs DO NOT allow advertising on the boats for their events. Their logic is that they want to preserve a level playing field in a gentleman's game. Advertising... eg logo's and sponsorship are not the road they wish to travel.



At the last Low Rent Regatta in Va Beach (aprox 5 years ago). They had a seperate class for boats with sponsorship and these boats payed a significantly higher entry fee then the majority of the huge fleet. The purpose of the differential fee was to make sure that the joe six pack sailor (thank you tami) felt that they had a chance to compete and win.



If sailors beleive the playing field is not level... then they will not come and play. For example, note the uproar that Tiger sailors raised over the perception that Nacra F18's would have an unfair weight advantage. This thread started with the notion that Pro's with sponsorship create an uneven playing field and so why would the weekend racer bother. In fact, some debated wether such sailors should be prohibitied from these events in much the same manner as many monohull classes prohibit or limit pros. US Sailing and ISAF set forth very specific criteria for what constitutes a professional so that classes can choose to limit or allow these racers depending on the nature of the event.



I see two advantages to tapping sailors with sponsors on their sails for a premium. The first is that the sponsoring club will get a bit more cash and this cash comes from the sponsor. Most importantly, is the official acknowledgment by the yacht club that these sailors are indeed Pro's.... Yes, they are scored in your class... BUT... you can also meausre your weekend's unofficial performance against the non pro's as well. (similar to the low rent event above) Of course, these sailors could also just use a suit of sails without all the signage.



I proposed a compromise. Many sailors want to compete against the best racers while others feel that they are behind the eightball if the game can be won by well heeled sponsored racers.. My suggestion was that the sailors with decals of sponsors pay a premium. The premium goes to the sponsoring fleet and they could use the cash for better parties... deeper trophies or seperate class trophies... whatever.



I am interested in this debate because CRAC will be looking for a beach cat start next year in the CBYRA Race to Oxford and this event does not allow sponsorship on the sails (so I have been told)



Hopefully I have explained the issue a bit more thoroughly.



Take Care

Mark

Actually, The Low Rent "Corporate Class" you speak of had nothing to do with giving the average Joe Sailor a winning chance. The class was formed for charity.

An establishment could enter the race under their business name and pay an entry fee of $100 that went to charity.

It had absolutely nothing to do with the level of one's sailing capabilities.

Hi Tracie

Thanks for the details, I never thought that the fee differential had anything to do with one's sailing resume. I do know that the coporate class was scored seperately and that was my essential point.



I don't really know if it matter to the catamaran racers that some of their competitors are sponsored or not. In monohull racing, this is a settled issue with most clubs opting for no corporate sponsorship allowed. Classes decide on the number of ISAF pro's and who gets to drive the boat.



Its interesting that a couple of regattas have started offering prize money (New England 100, Summer Sizzler, Seacrets Cup, Tornado something or other and perhaps others). So... if you win... are you a pro???... If you compete in these events are you a pro??? Are there plus and minuses for the way we are conducting some of these races.



Take Care

Mark

The Corporate class was scored in the Corporate class and their respective class, whether it be open or Hobie 16. Therefore they could in effect place in two classes; Corporate and/or Open/H16 - whichever boat they sailed.



In my opinion, competeing for money is just bad for the sport.

Mark,

Tracie is correct as I am currently staring at my two trophies from the 14th Low Rent. One is 1st Place Corporate and one is 7th Place Open Class. That race was the one sailed around the frieghters that were near the channel. I think money paid by the corporate class went to "Pave the Bay" I believe. So that had ZERO to do with being a PRO.

Just my .02cents

Doug W

Mark make that my two "CREW" trophies. I was basically along for the ride on a N5.8.

ANNNYYYYWAY!!

Doug

I hope you are just staring at those trophies...keep your hands on your keyboard Doug! Resist the temptation!