I need to replace the tiller arm / tiller crossbar connections on my P-19 and would appreciate some recommendations on options beside the stock system. The stock system seems to wear prematurely. I would like to use the existing tiller and crossbar tubes (O.D. 1.130") if possible. A little help, please.

Jack

I've had the stock system on my 18.2 for 10 years and it's held up. I have always used the Murray's tiller connection kit (http://www.murrays.com/archive/32-33.pdf) and have replaced it I think only once or twice. What exactly is wearing "prematurely"?

The holes in the tubing are enlarging. A knuckle system would be less prone to wear if one is available.

Jack

If the holes in the aluminum tubing are enlarging than I would say you have way too much slop in the connections. It's causing rubbing and lateral pull on the bolts. Does the stock system have springs in the connections? I crank mine down pretty tight (springs nearly fully compressed) so that the rudders don't swing loosely and they also stay square to the crossbar. I can still smoothly control the helm and I don't need to put too much pressure on the hiking stick to maintain course. Also, the Murray's kit contains the shaped plastic guides which keep the connection perfectly square. If anything, these have worn out every three seasons or so, but the kit is pretty cheap so getting a new one is no pain on the wallet.

Also, is the steel bolt threaded all the way through? It shouldn't be. That'll wear on the inner gudegon lines for lowering/raising the Prindle rudders and wear on the aluminum. They should be smooth-shanked in the middle.

I've never seen a knuckle or u-joint system for the connection. Every Hobie, Tornado, Nacra, Inter, Prindle I have ever seen has always had a single-pivot connection between crossbar and gudgeon arm.

Doug,
I do have the springs cranked down and the connection feels tight. If I hit something, which is typical of where I sail, alignment is lost. I've checked this by rapping a rudder with my hand, while the boat was out the of the water. The weakness of this system is that the connection is only as strong as a single wall thickness of the tubing. I would like to put on the H20 system which uses solid endcaps ( the whole cross section carries the load ) but I don't think it will fit my tubing. I saw a knuckle connection a while back (resembled a tie rod end) but can't remember where.

Jack

I wonder if the connections are too tight? The skipper has a lot of leverage when he works the tiller upwind, tacking and jibing. Crystallized salt in that connection can be pretty abrasive over time. However, in the 12 seasons I've sailed my P19 in saltwater-I've never seen any increase in slop in these connections. Any lightning in your neck of the woods?

First, you can't take all the slop out of a NACRA or Prindle rudder and still tack easily. The rudders need to turn at different angles (see ackerman angle) during tacking and the slop provides a portion of that.

The basic idea for the bolt systems is not that they stay centered but that they return to center under normal conditions.

Try loosening the springs a little, you may have them so tight they are binding. (On the old Hobies, if you did that the bolt bent)

The bolt hole has to be bigger than the bolt, normally 5 to 10 thousands biggeer If the hole is more than ~0.0625 bigger than the bolt you might consider drilling the holes out and installing plastic bushing.

The slop in old Prindle and NACRA rudders used to bother me until I took it all out.

If you find you just can't stand slop in the rudders buy a Marstrom, they have different problems.

I have a P19 MX,which I bought last November, on which the lower holes on the tiller arms are significantly larger than the upper holes. They are enough larger to enable the springs and nuts to pass through them and bottom out against the inside of the top of the arms. I ordered (but have not yet installed) new arms from Performance Cat, and those arms have a single size hole, top and bottom, equal to the diameter of the top hole in my original arms. With the Murrays upgrade springs and plastic spacers, I don't notice any slop in the steering, but the larger hole on the bottom of the arms still bothers me. Anyone else have this on their Prindle, (is this part of the Ackerman compensation), or is this actually wear and therefore a good reason to change out my tiller arms?

Peter

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

1. I believe my spring tension is right in that I can easily fold up the rudder assembly to pack in my cat box. I'm using the proper smooth shank bolts and have never bent one. The connection feels snug when installed on the boat.

2. The bolt holes on the underside of the tiller arms are significantly larger than the holes on the top. I am using a spacer to keep the nut on the outside of the tube.

3. The top bolt holes on the tiller arms have worn to where they are over .010 D larger than the bolts. I could bush this hole but would rather replace the tube if I have to stay with this connection. Don't even know where to get a bushing that will match the diameter of the tube.

4. I hate the problems associated with this type of pinned connection and can't believe there isn't something that will work better.

Jack

I found the connection I remembered. Any ideas where I can get the hardware?

The end caps are different, but it sort of looks like the "TILLER CONNECTION KIT" at murrays. Or there's the "H-20 STYLE TILLER CONNECTOR & ADJUSTER KIT" that looks closer to what your picture shows.

http://www.murrays.com/archive/32-33.pdf

In reference to the photo shown: The tiller connector bar or tiller tie bar is in the wrong position. The bar goes on top of the tiller arms not underneath, this will cause the hiking stick to rub on the rear crossbar when sitting on the tramp, also this will eliminate the nut from protuding on the top, as the top of the bolt will be hidden in the larger hole. You can download a parts catalouge and assembly manual from www.performancecats.com

That is a KISSME connector. As far as I know it is out of production. These systems look good but, have problems with wear and sometimes just falling apart.

The best system I have seen is delrin endcaps with SS pins, like the Marstrom. The H20 is similiar but more complicated because the tiller arms move.

As for bushings a good Ace Hardware should have a selection and Hobie has a couple bushings that might work. If your holes are only 10/1000 oversized you may have problems finding a bushing that thin.

Thanks again guys. I also noticed the tiller crossbar was under the tiller arms. It appears it wouldn't be a problem to attach it on top, as mine is now. I checked the holes in my tiller arms and they are about 100 thousands over. Since this KISSME connection seems to have its own problems, I guess I'll have to stick with the stock connection and either bush or replace the tiller arms again.

Jack