Last saterday saw the completion of the Alter Cup 2007 event but on the saterday before this event the Alter Cup youth team entered the Miami-Key Largo distance race on the Blade F16 and did well !

Here a copy from a post on the general forum.




I get a feeling that there is something to know here.

So I went to the Miami Key Largo homepage : http://miamiyachtclub.net/regattas/miamikeylargo/race.htm

And looked up the race results : http://miamiyachtclub.net/regattas/miamikeylargo/mklresults2007.pdf


And what do you know :

Luke Lawrence, sailing a Blade F16, finished 7th on handicap in a fleet of 42 beach cats. In this fleet 24 cats were 19, 20, 21, 23, 27 and 30 feet in length. Luke and his crew beat 20 of them on elapsed time ! Who said the Blade F16 can't do distance races in light winds and be competitive ?

And he did it in 5-10 mph winds. Was Luke sailing with Caroline Wright ?

Also note the other youth sailor Sarah Newbury on the tornado at 3rd spot in both listings. The youths are doing excellent here.

Results on handicap are (first 10)

-1- Roberts, Eric RC-30 5:21:34
-2- Philips, Michael Marstrom M-20 5:20:02
[color:"blue"]-3- Newberry, Sarah Tornado 5:51:03 [/color]
-4- Sonnenklar, Jay Inter-20 6:11:01
-5- Mayo, Clive Marstrom M-18 6:25:44
-7- Moss, Bret A Class + SPIN 6:27:01
[color:"red"]-8- Lawrence, Luke Blade F16 (2-up) 6:35:02 [/color]


On elapsed time the results are (first 10):

-1- Roberts, Eric RC-30 2:50:45
-2- Philips, Michael Marstrom M-20 3:05:37
[color:"blue"] -3- Newberry, Sarah Tornado 3:27:07 [/color]
-4- Sonnenklar, Jay Inter-20 3:40:01
-5- Sonneklar, Jared Inter-20 3:59:05
-6- Mayo, Clive Marstrom M-18 3:59:09
-7- Moss, Bret A Class + SPIN 3:59:57
-8- Greene, Terry Inter-20 4:01:47
-9-Leonard, Joe Inter-20 4:02:15
[color:"red"]-10- Lawrence, Luke Blade F16 (2-up) 4:17:34 [/color]


Also note how close the doublehanded F16 stayed to the singlehanded M-18 and A-cat+spi, again in 5-10 mph winds ? At least all that carbon looks good ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Wouter

Wouter, something doesn't seem right this time around though. They put Luke into the stray cat class. Last year I did this race and I was placed in the Big Dogs class, then lowered to fast cats. I scored a second place in class, and maybe a 7th overall.

Dunno why Luke was placed within the stray cats class, he murdered that class.

Because some people, despite all the evidence to the contrary, only look at the length of a boat and think that they know what the speed performance is. The fact that the US PN handicap is absolutely to slow doesn't help either.

Didn't we encounter more often in the past that event lay to cut of for the fast cat class at 65.0 as to keep the 65.2 F16's in the slow boat class on the kiddies course ?

Additionally I still don't understand we a regatta still creates so many different cat classes. Basically there should be only two.

-1- Spinnaker boats (not matter how small)
-2- Non spinnaker boats.

If there are alot of singlehanders then maybe a 3rd seperate class for them can be chosen.

The stray cats class is just rediculous, especially since a seperate 20 foot cat class was also created with boats that shared the same handicaps as the cats in the stray class. Why was the singel G-cat 20 in teh Ports 20 class when rated at 65.0 when the 4 Prindle 19's (65.1) were in the stray class ?

I've ceased to try to make sense of things like this.

Maybe the best way to adress this is too petition again with the US-PN comitee to lower our handicap rating to something like 63.5 ?

Wouter

It's fine with me. Is that the F18 number?

F18 Sloop w/ spi = 62.4

So????? Whacha think?!

It actually seems silly to request a specific D-PN as that runs counter to the whole point of that rating system. Granted, it is a flawed system (as all are) because it relies on certain assumptions.

I think we just need to continue to "sail" our rating to the point it should be.

As far as regattas go, we simply must educate race committees so they understand where we need to be. I, too, have had bad experiences being lumped in with the "slow" group. From that point I have just lobbied hard to make sure I start with the spin boats or the A-cats, not with the h16 and p16s.

Doesn't really matter to me .... we're getting enough F16's now we can have our own fleet...First across wins regardless of the DPN#. And I'll need more time on the water before that first across is me! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Eric,
As I'm not sailing in the US I don't really have the right to comment on what you do or how your rating system treats your elapsed time.
However I think you have the best answer. Sail the boat, get more people going head to head on the F16. The average skill level will go up and the handicap will come down.
It will take care of itself as long as people get out there and compete in numbers.

Regards,
Phill

All of the boats except my Mystere were rated 65 my boat rated 63.9 our buddy on a stock N6.0 rated 62.6 I believe was left in the fast cats without a spi.He should have been in our class and actually did try to change at the dinner before the race this would have given him 2nd in ports20 maybe?Putting the Blade with a spi against the likes of N5.2 and p19 without was a little off base our boats without spinnakers covered a third more of the course trying to tack downwind.And John Mc Knight sailed a perfect race with his boat .So If you see a man Bonefishing on this course its prolly' not a good idea to go see what he's catchin' <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Truely though there needs to be a better distance racing handicap or just go to A and B fleet because still some of the better hobie 16 sailors were always in the area in that light wind my own lack of experience though.

I'm fine with that too! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil, IMO you can comment all you like. What a great design!!

I don't sail the boat but follow it every chance I can. I say give it another year to gather more info and get it lined out.

Doug

That is an interesting point, because I never understood why a RC would place the (spi-less) A's in the fast fleet but not the F16's. Take a look at the D-PN numbers. That is if we assume for the moment that the current 65.2 handicap is anywhere near accurate.


F16 D-PN 65.2
Hobie 20 65.0 (0.3 % faster)
A-cat D-PN 64.6 (0.9 % faster)
F18 D-PN 62.4 (4 % faster)


Does a difference of 0.9 % really require the F16 to be put in the H16 and P16 fleet ?

H16 D-PN 76.0 (17 % slower)
P16 D-PN 77.5 (19 % slower)

Are these RC's intellectually challenged ?

My point here is that no RC would put the A's in the H16/P16 fleet so why do they do it with the F16's ?

I think this has all to do with the impression they have of the A-cats, one that is carefully cultivated, F16's don't have that. And they will for ever decide on 65.0 as the split point, just to keep F16's out of the fast fleet. And this prejudice is very hard to kill as we have learned again with the Alter Cup. Pretty much all F16 owners have expressed how not to regard the F16 boats and still some crews came unprepared for it. Still many sailors think that super light crews are best on the F16 only to find out that a truly powerful engine is on top of that boat. They look at the fact that the F16 has less sailarea then a Hobie 16 and think that that says anything about the speed and behaviour of the F16. And this is still happening after 6 years of F16 existance and F16 race results.

The ONLY way to combat this is to have a faster rating then the H20 and the A-cats as they possibly can't pretend that these boats don't belong in the fast fleet. In effect they can never again choose a split off point that will isolate the F16's as they can now.

Personally the US-PN F18 handicap is quite low at 62.4. For the F16 63.5 would suit us just fine (below A-cat and H20 which is true) and will not be a very hard rating to sail to either. Afterall we are outselfs requesting a faster rating, that is already unprecedented, we have no obligation to request a very low handicap.

I say 63.5 is a very good starting point for the F16's for the above reasons and truly it is very close to what probably is the right handicap for these boats.

In Europe we race of 1.02 compared to 1.01 of the F18's => D-PN 63.0
In Australia they race off 71 with 70 to F18 => D-PN 63.3
Under the new ISAF system the F16 is at 1.020 when the F18 is 1.005 => D-PN = 63.3

ALL the rating systems in the world, both yardstick and measurements, are agreeing on a rating for the F16 this close to the F18's, EXCEPT US-Sailing D-PN.

And to this we can now also add the personal opinions to that extend of all the Alter Cup crews.

Wouter