Hey all, an interesting discussion is happening on Sailing Anarchy's Fourms. Melges 32 vs Corsair 28R. Do all of us a favor and jump on over and take a look to keep the thread active, even better, post a response. Craig, NAcra 6.0EX, Hoof Hearted

They great multi/mono debate is constantly being discussed over there.

Along those lines, I actually came across the first, true, multihull hater at the post wednesday night race party this week.

Filled with all kinds of anti-cat propaganda, I was a guest so respectfully bit my tongue. When I told him that I could point as high as most mono's he finally resorted to the "well who are you racing against around here?"

I just smiled, I didn't want to say "well we got 50 boats on the water Easter weekend about 30 minutes up the road."

Its an uphill battle. The guy I crew for is an ex-TheMightyHobie18 sailor who was smiling the whole time this "discussion" was going on.

I've had similar "converstaions." One guy was adamant that multihull racing required no tactical skills saing it was just about boat speed (I had just won my class in the Governor's Cup). Of course he had never raced a multihull but he was certainly sure of himself. Arguing this topic is like arguing politics or religion. It takes a true religious experience to get a convert. I offered to "allow" him to crew for me at the next regatta, but he declined. I think he was scared.

I am not sure it is a pervasive problem but has everyone seen how much the mono skippers yell at each other on the course? They swear up a storm at the other guys and it ain't anything lighthearted either. After the other skipper is gone the conversation continues on how much of a jackass the other guy is etc etc. I haven't been racing very long but haven't seen that too much on the multihull end. But then again there was a **** yelling at me at Pontchartrain. I'll let that slide.
Maybe I am wrong and that really happens in the multihull world but I haven't seen too much of it. The level of animosity between mono skippers can be fairly stupid. In the end I am not sure why some of them still race when it is so clear they seem to all hate each other.

That guy was correct, multihull racing is all about speed, not so much tactics. Monohull racing is all about tactics, not much real speed difference exists between two boats of the same design, usaully not even half a knot.

You should have told him that when his entire monohull fleet is going all of...6 knots...you have lots of time to think about tactics, and because they don't separate very far at such a slow speed, the tactics are important. But when a multihull is coming in to the leeward mark at 20 knots, you don't have much time to think about tactics, nor does it matter, because boat handing is much more important. You could be going 5 or even 10 knots faster than another multihull in your class depending on how he handles his takedown.

I like racing both, is that so wrong?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Bethwaite describes the difference as a choice between tactics and strategy.

With a slow boat... you can't get to more wind... so you worry alot about your tactical relationship with the guy close to you...

When you are in a high performance boat sailing on apparant wind. it becomes a strategic game.... He who solves the problem and gets to more pressure first will win. Tactics come into play at the marks.

What really makes no sense is all of that "hiking"... those Contendor sailors have the right idea... get a trap... screw the laser when you want to play a tactical game.

The tactics are just coming out on the discussion over in Sailing Anarchy. Ian Farrier even posted a few comments. It is a fair discussion, not many snide anti-multi remarks. Great discussion over here in catsailor, but bring it over to the open discussion in SA where the pro-mono guys are. So far nobody from Melges has come forward in the discussion. Again we are trying to keep the thread wide open on SA to boost multis. Craig. Nacro 6.0 Ex, Hoof Hearted.

Life is too short to sail monohulls.

On the other hand, life lasts longer on monohulls -- or at least it seems that way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mary:

It will be cats and tris for me, till I can't sail anymore. I only race on monoslugs in the winter now till I get a Corsair (somewhat dry boat) down the road.

Doug

We passed the M-32 upwind in last years Annapolis to Oxford race on our N-20. Our lee daggerboard was also jammed half-way up after hitting debris in the Bay....

or dance with ugly girls.

All sailboats are fun. Some monos are very exciting and some are just poetry to sail. I still love the odd sail in a mono. But it is a simple thing that we catriders are speed freaks and that cats also have that big lazy tramp for the summer daze.
It is interesting that the mono guys get so rabid..
Here I am always ready to get off my cat and face someone mono-a-mono. But they never go the other way with the exception of a great Swiss buddy and fanatical mono sailor. We spent a week sailing this summer when he visited and he loved the Hydra and sailed it very well.
I have always found that in under ten knots of breeze tactics are very important in cats. I often tack more than other sailors and often do well for that as I think the "don't tack" mantra is opften wrong. I match race often in my Hydra against another Hydra. They are a well behaved boat and tack on a dime. Classic match race tactics work very well with that boat.

We passed the M-32 upwind in last years Annapolis to Oxford race on our N-20. Our lee daggerboard was also jammed half-way up after hitting debris in the Bay....


Nice. The big question is, were you pointing as high as him?

Weren't you stalled out sideways on the start line when that happened?

At our club, most catamaran sailors also own monohulls - some for overnighting and others for other kind of racing. Occasionally, we'll drag a slug out for a club race and we regularly establish that we are competent sailors. There is very little prejudice there.

Yeah, we were pointing the same. Although to be fair they may not have been pointing as high as they could as we were going upwind on the layline to a rounding mark. Our upwind performance was pretty bad that day (board stuck, mast raked too far, etc.). Still, we ran them down and passed them on the windward portion in the Choptank. And we outpointed a few others to climb above them to pass to windward out of their wind shadow. Gave one boat a nice close up show. We would have passed those boats much before then if we hadn't crashed in the Bay...

I think if anyone could actually do an accurate VPP Polar diagram for a high performance beachcat, you would find that we sail at very similar apparent wind angles as monohulls. I think in the medium wind ranges we sail a bit lower True wind angles but again, the same apparent wind angles. This is due to a larger component of our apparent wind coming from our boatspeed. As the wind increases or decreases, I've found that I can point right there with any monohull.

Now, on the Nap - Oxford race, the Melges probably wasn't pointing as high as they could have. As I recall it was upwind, but close to a close reach up the choptank. We didn't get into full upwind mode until the Tred Avon. Either way, they were probably sailing at 45 degrees apparent doing 7.4569 knots and we were sailing at 41 degrees apparent doing 12.3 knots.... perhaps an exagerration, but you get the point. Tad, since you have family in the area, you should come up for this race. It really is a hoot!!
(I can't believe i'm posting on a saturday afternoon and not sailing...)

Cheers,

TB

Yeah yeah... it was a screw up but I was trying to get out of there. A simple "dude, whats up? Ya can't be doing that!!"
I was thinking the wind is coming from the "windward" side of the line when I think it was 45 or maybe more off.
With the level of commentary from the other boat (I think I know who it was.. wasn't you though, I don't think <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ) you would think that they thought I was doing it on purpose and sitting there for the fun of it.
If I were the other boat and saw someone like that I would say, if anything at all, something like "ya can't be there" or something like that. But it is, in the end, something that could turn people off to racing.

Good point. Sailing monos has its own type of appeal. The choice of boat or boat type is an emotional issue, not a rational one. If it wasn't so, we'd all be racing jet skis and big motor boats. Similarly, race horses will always have its fans, they will not be abandoned because cars are faster.

Still, when multis are well sailed, they are close enough for tactics to play their role. But we need different courses. This is important.

A lot of the perception that we are less tactical, comes from the few times we share the same course with monos. When that happens, the course has to be short enough for them to finish and, as a consequence, it is set too short for multis. This forces our race to be less tactic: it becomes a sprint to the layline, another to the buoy and so on.

When the course is ridiculously short, I prefer to start in the wrong tack to save a tack... This is not a proper multihull race. In a proper course, with crews and equipement levelled, our races become a lot more interesting and tactical.

Similarly, it would be stupid to race cars and horses in the same track, under the same rules and then say that car racing is just a sprint to the finish line. Or that cars aren't tactical. Car racing in a horse track lacks emotions, but not because it is inhently less tactical: they just need more space to put tactics to work.

Cheers,