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New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues #105893
05/04/07 09:01 PM
05/04/07 09:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 196
Arkansas, USA
C
CaptainKirt Offline OP
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Arkansas, USA
Seems this forum has turned into largely a Blade forum these days, and that is fine, but there still are a few of us Taipan sailors around and many of us race as F16's. Apparently the Taipan 4.9 class (in Australia at least, which essentially is the class) has voted to adopt a new square top mainsail. I don't have the exact dimensions right now but just eyeballing it I would say it is very similar to the current Blade main. The issue is this-
For those of us with Taipan 4.9's if we "upgrade" to what is now a "class legal" mainsail but do NOT "upgrade" to a new, self-tacker jib what will be our status sailing as an F16?? For point of reference the current class legal jib is too large to technically fit the F16 rules, BUT if one is using a "class legal" 4.9 mainsail the jib is allowed (since the original main is smaller than the maximum I believe and definitely has a small squarehead). For me, since I largely sail uni anyway probably won't make a difference most of the time but for those rare occasions when I do bring crew will I have to use my "old style" mains or can I use a "new" style main with my original (and still class legal) jib??

Discussion??

Kirt


Kirt Simmons
Taipan, Flyer
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Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: CaptainKirt] #105894
05/04/07 09:50 PM
05/04/07 09:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Kirt, I am sure us F16 sailors in FL wont care. I think the changes are too small to seriously affect how the boat reacts. This is an assumption, please correct me if I am wrong.

Me personally, I wont care. The more on the line the better. I usually have the mind set of "Run what you brung"

Is there really a 4.9 class in the US?

Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Robi] #105895
05/04/07 10:09 PM
05/04/07 10:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
Is there really a 4.9 class in the US?


From Portsmouth ratings

Taipan 4.9 Slp no spi T4.9 68.2 72.7 70.6 67.5 64.9
Taipan 4.9 Uni no spi 1-up T4.9U 69.4 73.5 71.4 68.8 65.9

The kicker is "For Taipan 4.9 spi, see F16" so what do you do?

Kirt,

We're considering coming down for Sand Snakes to get some practice in for a young lady sailing in the Women's nationals. Will you be in town that weekend? Would like to get a firsthand look at the Taipan. If so PM me please.


John H16, H14
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: _flatlander_] #105896
05/04/07 10:21 PM
05/04/07 10:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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John, just because there is a DPN number does not necessarily mean there is a class per say.

I know there is a good amount of taipans around, but they are scattered all around the US. So I am sure the T4.9 running stock jib with F16 mainsail should NOT have a problem.

Just use the f16 rating two or one up.

Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Robi] #105897
05/04/07 10:45 PM
05/04/07 10:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 201
Adelaide South Australia
R
ratherbsailing Offline
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Adelaide South Australia
here are the measurements for new sail Hi Taipan sailors,

Below are the new measurements for the big head main that were voted into the Taipan 4.9 class rules. The change will take effect 18 months after the results of the vote were accepted. If you are looking to purchase a new big head sail please consider AHPC www.ahpc.com.au or Ashby Sails www.ashbysails.com who regularly support Australian Taipan sailing and TCAA fundraising efforts. AHPC have already began testing and development of the new sail plan.

Happy sailing - Kings

Hi Kings,
The following are the restrictions for the big head main as I sent through to Dennis last March.
They are slightly different to the original proposed measurements back in 2005.
The new measurements bring the sail area very close to the F16 sail area. This is about a 1% increase in area over the old Taipan mainsail area.

Regards,
Greg


The new restrictions for the bighead mainsail are set out below
I have also increased the maximum luff length of the sail as this can easily be accommodated by having a 50mm cut out at the head of the sail, exactly the same as the A-Class, Mosquito and F18. This brings the head of the mainsail almost level with the top of the mast. With this configuration the clew will also be 30 - 40mm higher allowing more room for mainsheet systems, mast rake and the skipper.

The changes to the restrictions for the mainsail would be; (the old restrictions are shown in red).

d. MAINSAIL:

ix. The top of the sail shall not exceed (400) 950mm measured perpendicular to the head.

x. At a point on the leech 1000mm down from the head, the nearest point on the luff shall be not more than 790mm distant including the bolt rope.- DELETED

xi. Measured to include the bolt rope:
At the 1/4 leech point, the nearest point on the luff shall be not more than (2090) 2015mm distant.
At the 1/2 leech point, the nearest point on the luff shall be not more than (1820) 1780mm distant.
At the 3/4 leech point, the nearest point on the luff shall be not more than (1260) 1410mm distant.
At the 7/8 leech point, the nearest point on the luff shall be not more than 1095mm distant.

The 1/2 leech point shall be found by folding the head to clew and smoothing the sail flat.
The 1/4 and 3/4 leech points shall be found by folding the clew and the head to the 1/2 leech point and smoothing the sail flat.
The 7/8 leech point shall be found by folding the head to the 3/4 leech point and smoothing the sail flat.

xii. The distance from the head to the clew shall be not more than (7940) 7950 mm
xiii. The distance from the clew to the tack shall be not more than (2150) 2100mm measured to include the bolt rope.

xiv. The foot round, when smoothed out for measurement, shall be a maximum of (75) 50mm.

15. MAST
f. Measurement bands shall be painted round the mast such that the inner distance between bands is not greater than (8050) 8100mm. Measurement bands shall be in a colour contrasting with that of the spar and have a minimum width of 25mm.

Attached Files
Last edited by hobie1463; 05/04/07 10:47 PM.


Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Robi] #105898
05/04/07 10:47 PM
05/04/07 10:47 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Quote
John, just because there is a DPN number does not necessarily mean there is a class per say.

I know there is a good amount of taipans around, but they are scattered all around the US. So I am sure the T4.9 running stock jib with F16 mainsail should NOT have a problem.

Just use the f16 rating two or one up.


My feeling is that not having a self-tacking jib and having a narrower boat are penalties to the T4.9. I think using the new main and the old jib would be perfectly fine and fair. It will be a liability in heavy air and downwind but a slight advantage upwind or reaching in light air. This issue probably affects only a small handful of us scattered across the US.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: CaptainKirt] #105899
05/05/07 02:38 AM
05/05/07 02:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Put in a formal request to the F16 governing council to formulate an official response to this matter. That is the only way to be sure. Personally I say bring what you got and race but official class policy can easily differ from this for very good reasons. Afterall at one point the class needs to draw a line.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: ejpoulsen] #105900
05/05/07 06:55 AM
05/05/07 06:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Thailand
Shouldn't be a problem, that is unless you start winning. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've got the new set-up and when sailed correctly the newly approved main is an nice enhancement, especially when sailing solo. Highly recommended… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Buccaneer] #105901
05/06/07 03:20 AM
05/06/07 03:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Interesting enough, we all have been sailing with the "new setup" for several years now. Eric's mainsail, which he uses for singlehanded racing, is actually an Ashby sail that predates the "new Taipan prototype".

I think most of us have been recommending the new setup for several years now. But it is nice to see the Taipan sailors discovering the benefits of something that got us kicked out of the Taipan class several years ago.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Wouter] #105902
05/06/07 04:16 AM
05/06/07 04:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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mattaipan  Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Just let it go Wouter.

I don't know why at every opportunity you feel the need to stick the boot in to the Taipan class, you've got your class and they've got theirs, why not just leave it at that.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: mattaipan] #105903
05/06/07 04:55 AM
05/06/07 04:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

I don't know why at every opportunity you feel the need to stick the boot in to the Taipan class,


Because at alot of opportunities they had felt the need to do so to me.

Point in case ; see the daggerboard discussion of only days ago.

Why not just call the Taipan mainsail what it really is. An F16 mainsail. Prototyping was done in the F16 class against some great adversity when it wasn't fashionable to explore such a "novel" idea.

I do indeed think it to be funny for a Taipan sailor to "highly recommend" the "new" mainsail design to sailors who have actually already sailed with such a sail for several years now.

Don't you see the irony in that situation. You guys are catching up, not "prototyping". All rebranding aside.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/06/07 04:56 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Wouter] #105904
05/06/07 05:29 AM
05/06/07 05:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
Why not think for a moment that the Taipan sailor isn't recommending the sail to you, but to others who are sailing Taipans with the original main, either as the OD or the F16.

Call the main anything you want, I'm sure thats nothing to do with the issue anyway, we refer to it as new as it is new to the Taipan class.

And sorry their not catching up, they were never behind. Catching up to whom? Another class? Their racing as a OD design and to their yardstick. I don't think theres any need to feel they have to catch up with another class or compare themselves to another classes.

The class has made the decision to modernise the rig, and if you want to say with an F16 main, thats fine, no worries I don't see any problem with that, or feel the need to take a swipe at the class at the same time.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: CaptainKirt] #105905
05/06/07 05:48 AM
05/06/07 05:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Seems this forum has turned into largely a Blade forum these days, and that is fine, but there still are a few of us Taipan sailors around and many of us race as F16's. Apparently the Taipan 4.9 class (in Australia at least, which essentially is the class) has voted to adopt a new square top mainsail. I don't have the exact dimensions right now but just eyeballing it I would say it is very similar to the current Blade main. The issue is this-
For those of us with Taipan 4.9's if we "upgrade" to what is now a "class legal" mainsail but do NOT "upgrade" to a new, self-tacker jib what will be our status sailing as an F16?? For point of reference the current class legal jib is too large to technically fit the F16 rules, BUT if one is using a "class legal" 4.9 mainsail the jib is allowed (since the original main is smaller than the maximum I believe and definitely has a small squarehead). For me, since I largely sail uni anyway probably won't make a difference most of the time but for those rare occasions when I do bring crew will I have to use my "old style" mains or can I use a "new" style main with my original (and still class legal) jib??

Discussion??

Kirt


I agree with Wout for the most. Just go sailing and enjoy! If it ever becomes an issue the class can address it at that time.

You'll be glad to know Taipans outnumbered Blades at GYC yesterday.

Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Wouter] #105906
05/06/07 06:39 AM
05/06/07 06:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Hey Dude lighten up a little.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The Taipan has always been on the cutting edge and with the updated main remains so. That should not detract from the F16 project. Besides I thought the mainsails you guys were using required a Halyard? The Taipan main needs no stinking Halyard.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Buccaneer] #105907
05/06/07 07:43 AM
05/06/07 07:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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The Taipan main needs no stinking Halyard

We had to put a halyard on our 4.9. Too hard to get the sail up without it. And too hard to get the sail down, if you need to, out on the water. Maybe it's just us <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> -- but I think a lot of A-cat sailors use halyards, too.

Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: fin.] #105908
05/06/07 08:22 AM
05/06/07 08:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
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Quote

You'll be glad to know Taipans outnumbered Blades at GYC yesterday.


Sorry I couldn't join you, Pete, I'm about 300 sf into a 1000 sf DIY hardwood flooring job. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


USA 777
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: tback] #105909
05/06/07 08:35 AM
05/06/07 08:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
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Quote
Quote

You'll be glad to know Taipans outnumbered Blades at GYC yesterday.


Sorry I couldn't join you, Pete, I'm about 300 sf into a 1000 sf DIY hardwood flooring job. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


A blessing on your house. You'll need it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

btw- Don't read this Beth! Found a new crew we can pass around! Beth is a GYC stalwart, but didn't have any spinnaker experience, so she asked me for a ride! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Making the story short, she got an awful flogging. I had let the starboard rachet jam and she labored through the last two races. Didn't get it sorted out 'til the racing was over. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Nevertheless, she was still smiling and asking for more!

Last edited by Tikipete; 05/06/07 08:41 AM.
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: mattaipan] #105910
05/06/07 10:36 AM
05/06/07 10:36 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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To Matt and others who are indeed taking some abuse from me on this issue.

I'm fully aware that I'm a jerk on this issue and I'm not really proud of that either. It would indeed be alot better if I would be very positive in my replies to this but I just can't bring myself to that. The frustrations of past experiences now combined with the introduction of the "new" Taipan mainsail design is just too much. And I'm only human.

So I guess I'm just asking for a little forgiveness on this issue of my persona, knowing that I can never bring myself to view the upgrades to the Taipan OD class as something that was already done years ago by people who got burned by it at the time. Maybe I do expect somebody to come along and say to us :"you guys were on to a good thing back then, to bad the time wasn't ripe for it". That would be the truth and would acknowlegde the fact that the real trail blazing and prototyping was done much earlier by a different group of people. Who, I may add, were predominately Taipan sailors. And even we stole a good portion of the development from the A's and the F18's. But it is better that I do not rehash that again.


Quote

And sorry their not catching up, they were never behind. Catching up to whom? Another class? Their racing as a OD design.



But the real point here is that if this upgrade was done a few years earlier then the Taipan class could have broken through internationally. The Aussie Taipan sailors hung the non-aussie Taipan sailors out the dry. In in some cases they hung individual persons out to dry. The Taipan mainsail was most definately falling behind, the same with some other aspect, mostly to the F18 class and the A's.

Now all the reasons against the upgrade still apply but this time it did not proved to be a block to introducing it. I know, not all things go ahead when it is best timewise, but if only this change could have happened a little bit earlier.

You know I'm really not slacking on the Taipan design or its class racing. I love the boat and the design concepts enclosed in it. My frustration comes from missing this golden opportunity to make the Taipan a truly international class and having great racing world wide. From the fact that the upgrades that could have made the design break through internationally were a serious taboe several years back but now when the race internationally is all but completely lost the Australian class decides to go ahead with it.

I think the upgrade to be a very good one. I know very well what the benefits are and indeed one side of me is thrilled to see the Taipan class incorporating it. It is just the other side of me that only sees the score of missed opportunities. And there were quite a few, several of which are not public knowlegde yet. So please forgive from being torn on this issue and for the fact that I'm unable to see the Taipan class developments exclusively in a positive light.

I really don't mean to be bad juju about it but on the other side I just can't help it. Not enough water under bridge yet I guess.

I hope you understand.

I will now shut-up about it.


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/06/07 10:44 AM.
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: Wouter] #105911
05/06/07 02:23 PM
05/06/07 02:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Wouter

Thats probably the best post written by you, I've probably read to date. I've said all along that I'm most definately not, in anyway, anti F16. But as you would do, and I see you do, I will stand up and defend my chosen class.

Wouter, you guys were on to a good thing back then, too bad the time wasn't right for it.

I will shut up about it now.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: New Taipan 4.9 class mainsail- F16 issues [Re: mattaipan] #105912
05/07/07 12:09 AM
05/07/07 12:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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I think this forum needs a "handshake" option icon !!!


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
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