All members:

Voting is now open to all owners of F16 catamarans in respect of 3 currently proposed rule amendments for 2008. The voting will be completed at the AGM in Zandvoort during August this year. If any amendments are carried they will be in force for 2008.

To vote:

1. Log into the F16 Public forum at www.letshaveachat.com

F16 Public Forum

2. Register your details

3. Once approved you will be granted access to the voting area

4. There are three ballots at present, you may only vote once in each ballot

5. Please note that this is a public vote and therefore your vote will be visible to other voters (this is just as it would be if a vote were held at an AGM)

6. Any discussion on the merits of any ballot item may be held here on Catsailor but please note that the current wording of each ballot will not be amended. You may only Agree/Disagree with each ballot.

Thank you.

Simon,
Am I reading your forum instructions correctly? Each person has to start a new THREAD with their details, not just reply to your initial post in the Welcome thread?

Do I understand it correctly that when a sailor is not entirely happy with a change that the only way to amend the proposed change is to first vote it down and hope that afterwards a newly worded change is proposed ?

Would it be smart to allow for a third option in the vote where by the voter can indicate that he or she disapproves of the proposed change in the current wording but not necessarily disagrees with the goal of the change ?

Wouter

These are the 3 ballots on which you are being asked for your views:

[color:"blue"] Ballot Nr. 1
In the rules it states: [/color]
1.12 The mainsail

1.12.1 The Mast & mainsail area may not be larger than 15 sq. metres.

1.12.2 The Mainsail luff length may not be longer than 8.1 metre (= 8100 mm).

Where :

Mast & mainsail area = (mainsail area + ½ * mast area)

Mainsail area = all of the mainsail surface area that is outside of the mast while sailing.

Mast area = mainsail luff length multiplied by the circumference of the mast.

Mainsail luff length is defined as : the distance measured alongside the (straight) mast from the
highest point of a normally hoisted mainsail towards the lowest point reached
when the downhaul is used.

[color:"red"] The F16 Governing Council Proposal :
[/color]
1.12 The mainsail


1.12.1 The Mast & mainsail area may not be larger than 15 sq. metres.

1.12.2 The Mainsail luff length may not be longer than 8.1 metre (= 8100 mm).


Where :

Mast & mainsail area = (mainsail area + mast area)

Mainsail area = all of the mainsail surface area that is outside of the mast while sailing, measured in accordance with ISAF measurement rules.

Mast area = mast length *maximum circumference of the mast * 0.5


[color:"blue"] Ballot nr 2:
[/color]
[color:"red"] F16 Governing Council Proposal to add: [/color]

1.6.4 For the avoidance of doubt, daggerboards/centerboards will conform to the following :

a) Curved/’Banana’ boards will not be allowed.
b) Assymetrical cross-section profile boards will be allowed.
c) Fore/aft movement of the boards when in the down position will not be allowed.
d) End fences/horizontal appendages below the waterline will not be allowed. The board shall be capable of removal, without tools, via the upper opening of the case.
e) There will be no limitation on the daggerboard/centerboard length


[color:"blue"] Ballot nr 3:

In the rules it states: [/color]
Prologue: The Formula 16 class
The Formula 16 class for high performance beach catamarans is a mildly restricted class, reserved for sport catamarans that may be sailed either doublehanded or singlehanded. The designs are of amateur or professional construction and are intended for racing on elapsed time with respect to other Formula 16 designs, as well as Formula 18 class designs.

[color:"red"] F16 Governing Council Proposal : [/color]

Prologue: The Formula 16 class
The Formula 16 class for high performance beach catamarans is a mildly restricted class, reserved for sport catamarans that may be sailed either doublehanded or singlehanded without time adjustment. The designs are of amateur or professional construction and are intended for racing on elapsed time with respect to other Formula 16 designs.

On this occasion Wouter that is exactly what we are saying. The proposed wording has been debated at great length by the F16GC and views sought from boat builders, sailmakers and ISAF measurers on the best wording to use. If the membership are unhappy with the chosen wording then they must disagree with the proposed amendment. They will, of course, have the opportunity to propose alternative wording which would then require a further ballot but it is unlikely that this could be achieved before Zandvoort.

John,

It would be very interesting to hear the F16GC's reasoning for each of these changes. i.e. what problem are we trying to solve with these changes?

Although I think I can see what's trying to be achieved with the sail area rule, do we not risk making existing sails illegal, as you're effectively increasing the rated area of the mast?

Paul

F16 secretary,

Understood.

I have one further question. For me personally it is of interest how the boats that transition from compliant to non-compliant by a rule change are required to continue as F16's. Meaning how will these boats be handled under the new rules and/or will they be forced to buy new gear or have parts rebuild to become compliant again.

To give an example : In the new rules more mast area is included in the mainsail sail measurement, making the total area of the mainsail itself smaller. If a F16 sailor has a newly cut mainsail that is optimized but compliant under the current rules (like maybe the Alter Cup boats) with a total area of 14.95 sq. mtr, then adding the bottom section of the mast(area wise) will make him non-compliant at 15.02 sq. mtr. Will this sailor be allowed to use this mainsail till it is destroyed or thrown away or is he required to actively recut it ?

In effect, what I'm asking for is to include (in the voting) the procedure for dealing with formerly compliant parts that become non-compliant if the change is accepted. I think this should be an integral part of a proposed change.

Wouter

Yes; that way it is easy for me to remove their details once they have been confirmed as bona-fide F16 ers as I can just remove that thread from the public forum(if requested to do so). If people reply to a thread with their details, I need to EDIT that thread to remove their detials. Editing takes me much more time than simply removing a thread from the forum.

My request for people to start a new THREAD is simply to same me admin time.

On this subject, I notice that Someone called Wouter has joined and not posted their details; please would Wouter confirm his details in the appropiate place and I will allow that user to see the polls.

Dear F16 sailors,

The mainsail area change is proposed because of the following. If we say the Mast area = mainsail luff length multiplied by the circumference of the mast and we start pulling on the luff the area will be increasing and will pass the 15 sqm if we pull hard enough. When you are using a dacron sail the area will be bigger than 15 sqm in compare to a pentex sail because you can not stretch this sail more than a dacron sail.. The other reason is that it is not possible to measure the exact area when starting to pull on the luff because during sailing this is a variable, so the area will change constantly and also a change of bigger than 15 sqm.
When we are saying the total mast length is taken than we can calculate a distance where you are can pull the luff to to reach the 15 sqm and this will be the point where the blackband is put. So with a maximum luff length of 8100 mm the sailmakers know exact what to do and they are able to make a sail that will comply with the rules always, and the sailors are not at risk of sailing with a bigger sail than 15 sqm.

This change will also bring us more in line with the ISAF classes so that our measurement is more typical of other International classes, and according the ISAF measurement rules.

With regard to the sails built earlier, we as F16GC have said that there will be no ban of these sails and people don't have to buy new or re cut the sails, we want to say that there is a transition time for these sails. Normally when you are racing in competiton every 2 to 3 years you need a new sail to keep at the front of the fleet and keep up to date. So the transition period is 2008 and 2009, and if after this time there are still older sails in use this will be accepted during events (global challenge, nationals etc) if the event organisation ( measurer) and F16GC are advised of it. We don't want that people should have extra costs because of these rule changes.

I dont see the difference between the two wordings here as it clearly would be against the intention of the rules to use the downhaul to 'stretch' the sail to make it bigger. If this is an issue, put a black "measurement mark" at the max hoist height and another at the lower limit. Sails not allowed outside these two measurement marks. I believe this is the "standard" in other classes which regulate luff length. Putting the gooseneck at the lower measurement band effectively stop anyone from downhauling below the mark.

The real question here in my opinion is wether the F16 class need a smaller mainsail? Or are there other reasons (except what Hans brought up) for decreasing sail area?


As long as we are talking about masts. I suppose we will not see many tapered masts in the F-16 class, as you loose effective area.

Rolf,

Please go to the F16 class website and look at the measurement form. We already have a "black band" in the rules. The change that the F16GC are proposing assist in the clarification of this.

No limit? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Why what's the limit now? ... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rolf,
I believe the Stealth mast are tapered.
Regards,
Phill

Buccaneer,

That's the point - there is no limit on length at present. The proposal is to provide further clarification in the ruleset.

We have in the past been asked "where do I/we find the max daggerboard length in the rules?" (amongst other questions that we are now addressing) This amendment to the rules addresses that.

Simon,

As I see it the main difference regarding sail area is how the masts surface area is calculated.

Current rule:
Mast area = mainsail luff length multiplied by the circumference of the mast.


Proposed rule:
Mast area = mast length *maximum circumference of the mast * 0.5


Mast length is longer than max luff length, which means that the area of the mast under the lower measurement mark now is included in total mainsail area?

Would it not make more sense to increase total sail area by an amount equivalent to the typical area of mast below the luff on a current F16? This would mean that an existing, fully-optimised F16 would come out very close to fully-optimised under the new rules, and there would be no net decrease in sail area for new boats.

Or is the mast area we're talking about so small that we shouldn't worry about it?

Paul

Yes, so the rule counts 1/2 the area of the mast that does not have sail attached; yes, sails will get a little less in theory; but in order to get a sail to measure is must have less than 15sqm in it anyway.

Edit to respond to Paul's comments; I'd bet if you got your sail measured, the all up area would be somewhere less than 15sqm; I'm guessing mine is about 14.8 including mast.

Rolf,
I am surprised that it is 0.5 X max circumference.
Is this for the entire length?
When the A class had tapered mast I thought they calculated the taper.
If not this would disadvantage the Stealths.

Is your F16 mast tapered?

Regards,
Phill

Dear F16 sailors,

Please have also a look at website of the F16, there you will find a working Excel sheet of the measurement form and when you play around with that you will see what is happening. This will make the whole rule proposal change much more clear i think.

My understanding is that all the newer sails (2007) should measure under the new wording. Some of the earlier sails will too. However the vast majority of 06 and earlier sails will be marginally too large to measure in. If you recall at last years UK Nats, Geert demonstrated this point with the Blade sail and the two different Stealth sails he had available.

The amount of area under discussion is, I think, approx 0.06 sq m?