Come on now….It can't be that difficult can it? I mean yours is 120kg and home made right? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hydra, Paper Tiger, Nacra 14sq, Windrush 14, Attunga 20, Tiger Shark 18, Sabre 16, Taipan 4.9.

We know, that is what we are using our frappr world map for.

With respects to shallow fleets, I still believe it will be great fun to combine the F17 and F16 fleets into one start and scoring. Just as was proposed by the Florida F16 sailors for the tradewinds regatta last time. Could well help both classes.

Wouter

I don't think this is entirely correct. The F16 guys have been quite vocal about how the F17 is NOT a formula type boat. Probably we were doing so a little too much, but it does exclude us from being the ones who wrote/said that is WAS a formula type class.

Personally (but who am I ?), I don't think the F17 is a "one design formula" type either. It is downright a "Single Manufacturer One Design" (SMOD) type. The only difference to say a Hobie 16 is that you may use two spinnaker area's depending on your weight and you may cut down the length of your daggerboards. I don't recall you may use 3rd party suppliers for things like sails etc. Therefor it is not a formula boat in any way as that would allow any part to be used as long as it measures in. In this respect it is not a One Design type like the Tornado either. In such OD classes different builders may make the same OD boat as long as it conforms to the templates, but the F17 may only be produced by Nacra and the sails may only be purchased through them.





<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Of course WE, the F16 boats, are the BIGGEST FAD boats of all time ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


(FAD = Feel the Accelleration, Dude)

Wouter

It is true that my homebuild F16 (fully sloop rigged) is 120 kg and it doing pretty well against other boat types. But still this doesn't mean that it is easy to design and commercially produce F16 boats.

For starters my boat is fast but the new designs are better. In the way of weight the difference is easy to spot. The new commericial F16's in standard (alu) attire are 107 to 110 kg (ready to sail). That is 10 kg difference and as we all know losing the last few kg's is the hardest.

The difference in platform stiffness between these new F16's and my homebuild is stunning. If I lay up my platform on its sterns and lift one bow then the other bow will sit 60 mm lower. On the new commercial F16's this measurements is 15 mm. That is an improvement by a factor of 4; while at the same time being 10 kg lighter !

And as such there are other differences as well. If Nacra designs and produces an F16 then they need to compete with these new commercial F16's and not with my homebuild.

In principle nacra can do it, technology wise we are not doing any NASA stuff. However figuring out how to do can be time consuming as all builders treat this expertise as trade secrets AND as a company you have to build up a very good quality control policy. Especially the latter is a challenge for larger commercial builders as nacra found out in the past years. Without a very tight company wide quality control policy you can forget about building dependable A-cats or F16's.

But lets get back to the Inter 17 discussion.


Warbird, find out for us WHICH type that inter-17 on offer actually is. I strongly suspect it is the Aussie designed and build Inter-17 which is significantly different from the US I-17R and F17's. Scoobies US build but EU type inter-17 is probably closest to this Aussie version of the Inter-17.

Wouter

Damn, I've not sailed any of those....

Oh, well; I'll just compare my F16 experence with my Inter 17.

Main differences off the water

1, The Inter 17 is longer (10 inches) and carrys a fair few more KG around. My boat had an Alu mast and so was a lot more than an I17R or a F17. I think an F17 is 134 or 140kg, alu was probably more like 150-60.
2, The F16 IS much lighter, my boat should be close to minimum weight and so around 104kg single handed - this does make a massive difference when dragging it around the boat park even with proper Cat trax.

On the water.

1, As soon as the I17 is floating, most of the weight issues disappear. It is a dream to sail and the my boat had amazing balance, don't know how, but I could let go of the tiller upwind and down (with kite up) and the boat would just track along.
2, The F16 I have (Stealth) has very flat bottom hulls, this makes it very skittish on the water. But it does appear to rise up and plane in certain situations.

upwind.

1, The I17 was a more "grunty" boat, Bigger and heavier and so the sails are lifting more weight, thus sheet loads are heavier, but it's still no problem sailing for 15 miles on one tack with the kite up. I had a 19sqm kite and it was hard work, but not impossible.
2, The F16 requires more Finesse when tacking and gybing, it is a lot quicker around the turns (sure the flat bottoms help here). And I've found myself "over rotating" when wire to wire tacking at times (still).
3, Speed of the two boats is comparable upwind, I the light stuff, the F16 stomps all over the I17, The F16 wires earlier and then really makes a difference. In the moderate stuff (10-20) the boats are similar upwind, and then when it gets windy, the I17 starts to gain a little.


Downwind

1, Downwind the I17 was fun, the F16 is a scream. F16 Spi is 17.5sqm, I17 19 as I said. F16 also has a bigger mainsail (than my I17, I believe the F17 has a comperable mainsail size). The F16 just picks up and flies in lighter winds when the 17 would still be in non hull fly mode.

2, F16 Sheet loads are lower in the light stuff, and then similar in more wind. The F16 is MUCH quicker down wind.

3, Both boats are quicker when wiring down wind, the F16 goes into this mode more quickly simply as it is lighter


general stuff

1, People say that proper F classes turn into arms races, now this is partly true, but the evolutions on the Inter 17 have come thick and fast and so you cannot (IMO) us this argument when comparing the Inter 17 against the F16. Yes, F boats do evolve, and it can be seen in the F16 class at present. We are all thinking hard about our boats and how we sail them. In the 6 years I had my Inter 17, we went from the Inter 17 with the Alu mast, to the I17R with a carbon mast and I believe a lighter platform weight, and then to the F17 which had a lighter platform weight again.

2, The weight of the Inter 17 IS an issue on the beach. It is NOT an issue on the water.

3, The more open rules in the F16 allow you to tailor the boat layout to what YOU want, the Inter 17 rules do not.

4, Cost for cost, the F17 was MORE expensive in the UK than my Carbon beamed Stealth and you get more sails (but less hull length) as the boat can be sailed one or 2 up.



overall

I would say that on the water, the F16 is more fun as it is just faster around the course for less effort, lifts a hull earlier and is generally so much fun to sail.

There is also a bigger fleet of F16's in the UK than Inter, F or I17R's.

The F16 can also be sailed 2 up which makes a massive difference to me with kids that are growing up.


Would I buy another Nacra F / I 17, yes, but there would need to be a big fleet to tempt me away from the F16 fleet.

Back to the original thread....

Hey all you folks on the fence,

Get your trailer bearings greased up and come join the fun! Date is 28-31 July in Caseville, MI. Once the race begins, don't be sitting on your computer wishing you had driven to the event. Come over and join the fun! Just DO IT! If you decide to come early, I'll be there Wednesday morning before the event and sailing everyday leading up to the 28th! Anyone want to be a tuning partner and get faster?

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bob--I believe there will be at least two boats there on the wed prior to the event. I intend on being there to sail as much as possible before the big show. My boat is actually pictured earlier in this thread. (F17323) I look forward to meeting you and look forward to a great event. Caseville is one of our best venues to hold a regatta. So like you said--get em trailered up and head north.Great parties ,beautiful venue..

Chad S F17323 Bay City ,Michigan

Thank you for taking so much time to create such a good reply. I have something to take to the viewing.

No problem

Again, back to the original thread....

Chad,
I'm looking forward to sailing with you guys! I will be bringing a small mark for practice before Saturdays race. Can y'all bring one too?

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hm- It sounds like at least 1 F16 sailor claims lighter weight and modern spars make a big difference favoring the F16 vs the heavy I17...
Anybody else flaming today?

Bob, I will be there but hadn't planned to arrive early. Sounds like a good idea though.

Bob,

Being based in EU I cannot join you, ;-) but I would really enjoy some pictures of the event, especially of the boats of course. I hope you have a good event, good sailing.

Just my opinions having sailed both boats.

BTW, here are some pictures from last year at the same location. The most 17's in one place so far. Hopefully we can beat that this year!

http://nacraclass.com/F17C/pix_hz.htm

Good lookin' line up. All the best to you guys.

You know I am sick and tired of the same people turning every topic on this forum into an F16 discussion. Most people dont even bother reading this forum any more because it is always the same misinformed sailors pretending to be the experts and writing nonsense about the F16.

This topic was to generate interest in the F17 NAs. And I might add that the F17 group is 10 times more competitive than the F16 class here in the States.

F16 is a decent little boat but some of you are doing your class a disservice.

P.S. Dont bother replying to me as I'm done reading this forum as well.

Yes I think we are all drowning in a sea of F16 rhetoric and drum beating.

BITE ME!

we are you irresistible red headed step child. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />