Wouter, in my german version of the racing rules 1985-1988 in the introduction they say that this is the first version to use "Steuerbord-Wind" (wind from starboard) instead of "Backbord-Bug" (tilted to port) in the rules. So if you can get a hand of an older version you probably find the "port over starboard" version of the rule. This was done to adapt the german version (where backbord-bug vor steuerbord-bug was common usage) to the english version. Interesting enough that this subject still causes confusion...

Claus,

Do you keep all the versions of the rules. I always transacribe my notes from one version to the next and then throw it away so I don't make mistakes.

I'm impressed you still have a book from the 80's; I don't have the room to keep each evolution of the books.

Simon, no, I just have quite a big gap in my sailing activity. I did a race on an A cat back in the late 80 s and got myself the rules book for it. Then I didn't have a boat for quite a few years until about three years ago, when I started sailing again. So now I got a brandnew rules book and couldn't throw away the old one...

In the northern hemisphere water swirls in the opposite direction down a drain from what it does in the southern hemisphere, so port and starboard in the north is the reverse of what it is down south (I saw that used unsuccessfully in a protest room once)

HAHAHA!

I dont agree with that, if you get to the mark on the port layline you can tack and go straight onto the reach or run. If you underlay while on port tack to arrive outside the two boat length zone you have at least two boat lengths of slow sailing as you build speed out of the tack.
The trick is to find a gap in the traffic <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Darryn

Reach or Run?

Around these parts, in Texas, 'B' mark is an extinct animal.

Hey, I just noticed this. I was the Starboard boat. The facts here are pretty close except for a few things I'd like to add.

I came around A and Hoisted. I just get the chute flowing and I notice Port boat right on my line. My chute starts flowing good and the hull starts to pop. I notice the collision course from Port boat at this time. I see him head off about 5 degrees at about 25 boat lengths from me just as my hull pops and I head off about 10 degrees. I continue to fly my hull downwind. I think 25 boat lengths is a little early for me to have to hold my course. I then continue to watch him closely to decide which side of me he is going to try to pass. I can't figure out after the initial 5 degree change any action to avoid me. He continues to head on a direct collision course. Maybe a boat width to windward or a boat width to leeward but who can tell what he really intends? We get about 2 boat lengths away playing chicken and I decide the pain will be less for me if I turn up hard which I do (30 degrees at least). Luckily at the same time he turns down hard. (Had he turned up hard it would have been a collision but at least not as fast). I have no idea how I didn't go over but as soon as turned up hard I yell protest and sail on.

I continued to hold my course for many boat lengths (10-15) at least) without any decernable action by the Port tack boat to avoid me. I had to alter course hard to avoid a collision at top speed.

The port tack boat in this situation has to be clear to which side he intends to pass. When the port tack boat initially made his turn down and I turned down with him he could have still turned down further. Heck he still had time to head down and jibe at that point.

Starboard boat has to give port room and time to avoid. I did that. Port boat didn't react. As starboard boat I feel it's my obligation to hold my course at the critical moment to give the port tack boat the opportunity to avoid. If I change my course to avoid too early that can cause more problems.

The port tack layline is a dangerous place to be. I have no problem with someone wanting to be there. They have to be ready to make major course changes to avoid boats on that layline.

Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com

You've always been trouble Hill!

OK Mike....I left names out to keep this from getting personal. However....at this point your facts and my facts differ (for example you claim to have born off and held course, and I claim to have adjusted to your course changes 3 times), and I have no desire to have a public pissing contest, so I'll drop the debate at this point. But....especially with witnesses, I know how I'll handle the same exact situation next time and we can let the protest comittee sort it out.

Adios...

What is the issue... You are on port AND ON THE LAYLINE!!!
the in and out in your attempt to keep clear simply means that you know what you are doing.. but... you can't save a bad situation here... do your circle and keep going.

Mark,

You need to read closer....I was NOT ON THE LAYLINE....I was about 10 b/l below it. So, yes...I could have double tacked, but I also had every right to expect that S would hold their course and by the time we danced down and then back up, a tack would have left me a sitting duck...note that even 25 boat lengths only takes 7-9 seconds to close at our speeds in that wind.

I have also been told numerous times that once a Starboard boat begins yelling "starboard", they are then obligated to hold their course....

For the record, I did a circle, although I now believe according to ISAF cases 60, 76 & 92, I was exonerated of my breaking rule 10 because of S's breaking 16.1

Please note....that although I'm not happy about the conflict between my friend (S) and myself, I do really enjoy and learn a TON from the rules discussions that stem from situations like this!! It's one thing to read the rule book...but going through situations like this really cements things!!

Looks like Joe has done his homework and would have a strong position in the room.

I agree... I learn the most about the rules by matching them up to the screw ups that I have had. Since I am hardly a rules expert... I don't push the line in these circumstances.

In listening to judges talk about the 2 boat length circle and when the give way boat has to make the decisions and moving the logic to this situation. I think that starbord can sail all over the course for the majority of his time down wind. He only has to defer to the give way boat at the end If his move would not have let you turn head to wind to avoid fouling him.

I could be way off base here though.... Mike F is always good with these interpretations.

Apart from rules: the boat going upwind headed down and the boat going downwind headed up! No-win situation for both, a good example for when it pays to not insist on your right of way.

Can someone post the relevent cases? I can't seem to download them on my computer.

I'm not interested in any public pissing match. I am interested in Relevent cases and rules to this situation. I'm also interested in opinions from people at what point (how many boat lengths) a starboard boat should have to hold course. My view is at about 12 boat lengths the starboard boat should hold course (in this situation) till about 5 boat lengths when a collision is imminent.

I'm also interested in how two people can see the same situation through different perspectives.

I have no idea if you were on the layline or not. In the end when you tacked how far from the layline were you? However that doesn't really have any bearing on the rules in this situation.

Here are some numbers to crunch:
Closing speed is 40 feet/second given 18mph for starboard and 10mph for port. So to close the 25 boat lengths is 12.5 seconds.

The only rule I'm aware of that comes into play here is the following: 10, 16.1, 16.2

I don't mind hashing it out a little for all to learn from including myself.

Mike Hill

Download the ISF casebook here:

http://www.sailing.org/rrs2005/casebook2005.pdf

Look up the cases above.

As to boatlenghts, it it speed dependant and boat dependant. I have info to suggest that such an incident in 49ers in about F4-5 would be around 200 meters.

I had a similar incident recently to the one we have been discussing, worked out who was the at fault with Garmin Foretrex tracks from both boats, issue was clearly resolved after the race.
Darryn

Mike...I just sent you the case book in email (swbell addy).

I was about 10-12 b/l from the mark when we reached the Sbd LL.....did a circle and crept to the mark given we had to set up for downwind. Keep in mind that when you round the WW mark you are diving deep to hoist, so had I been on the Port LL we would not even be having this discussion because the conflict would never have occured as you were well inside the course after the hoist. I also agree that our position wrt either layline is irrelevant wrt the rules. It did have bearing on my decision to bear off versus tacking initially, but agreed...no bearing on rule infractions.

Your timing calcs are similar to mine except I estimated out combined speeds slightly over 30 knots (I know from GPS that in those winds we typically exceed 20 kts downwind.) Nonetheless, it all happened very quickly to say the least.

I have been unable to find a definitive "distance" anywhere for holding course, I strongly suspect that is because "it depends" on boat type, wind and water conditions, other traffic, etc...That is why I have always interpreted (right or wrong) that if it is close enough for ROW boat to hail, or for give way boat to alter to avoid, then it is close enough to hold course. Subjective to say the least, but rules can only go so far.

I have heard it said before that the smartest thing the ROW boat can do is to bear away quickly to encourage the give way boat to go above (assuming the ROW boat wants to go below). Otherwise the ROW boat is stuck with holding course based on the give way boat's decision and has to deal with any subsequent consequences.

I'm no expert here either, but the more we discuss stuff like this the smarter (and safer and more competitive) we all become.

Thanks for taking the same approach as me to this...hashing=good, pissing=bad!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I found this:
Rule 16.2, Changing Course
This has now been restricted in its application so that in addition to rule 16.1, when after the starting signal a port-tack boat is keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of a starboard-tack boat, the starboard-tack boat shall not change course if as a result the port-tack boat would immediately need to change course to continue keeping clear. The rule therefore applies only upwind, to hunting by bearing away – the ‘dial-down’. The standard provisions of rule 16.1 cover hunting by luffing.

So it looks like 16.2 does not apply since it only comes into play going to windward.

So the key rule here is this:

16.1: 16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.

Mike Hill