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Light air #109225
06/08/07 08:35 AM
06/08/07 08:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline OP
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ksurfer2  Offline OP
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K

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
Last night I was sailing in our weekly beer can race on my N20 and the winds were light....in the 4-6 knot range. When sailing downwind under spin in winds this light, is it fast to sail a higher course, or just suck it up and sail deep and slow. There were a couple of A cats on the course, and I can usually out run them down wind, but last night, I could not gain at all. They seemed to be sailing much deeper than I was. Also there were a couple of Melges 24's that actually overtook me down wind sailing much deeper than I was.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109226
06/08/07 08:46 AM
06/08/07 08:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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Posts: 3,348
My instinct would be to keep 90 degrees apparent wind and gybe aggressively. But, I'm usually wrong! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: Light air [Re: fin.] #109227
06/08/07 08:53 AM
06/08/07 08:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 37
AlanOSauras Offline
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AlanOSauras  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 37
Not sure. Never sailed in light air with Melges 24's but I know that it is not uncommon for them to beat a N20 around the bouys in that kind of stuff. I would say that you would probably want to try to really play the downwind angle alot , heading up when it feels to be decelerating and down when you have some speed. Just make sure you've got boards mostly up (windward board all the way up), downhaul off, keep your weight forward, trim the jim and make sure the chute stays full. That is assuming everything else on the boat is well setup (mast rake, diamond tension, ect..)


-Alan Stewart Team Velocity Sailing; Crew N20 spare time; Hobie 18
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109228
06/08/07 09:52 AM
06/08/07 09:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Chris9  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Did you have you spin halyard tight? If so, ease off 6" or so. If you have a tack line, try easing that as well or instead. You may want to check your main and put on more downhaul and maybe even less mainsheet. If your boards were up and you were sailing high you may have been crabbing sideways.

I don't know about the melges, that is a big spin and in 4-6 it was helping them. Not unusually with the A Classers.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109229
06/08/07 10:01 AM
06/08/07 10:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
pdwarren Offline
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pdwarren  Offline
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Posts: 465
Oxford, UK
I've always thought that you should go a bit deeper, but when last year's Grafham cat open turned into a drifter I found the opposite to be true. I was getting passed by everything until I started going high - about 70degrees to the apparent wind. At this point I was sailing similar angles to the F18s and going quicker. In this case, it was definitely quicker to go for boat speed.

Paul

Re: Light air [Re: Chris9] #109230
06/08/07 10:19 AM
06/08/07 10:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Did you have you spin halyard tight? If so, ease off 6" or so. If you have a tack line, try easing that as well or instead. You may want to check your main and put on more downhaul and maybe even less mainsheet. If your boards were up and you were sailing high you may have been crabbing sideways.

I don't know about the melges, that is a big spin and in 4-6 it was helping them. Not unusually with the A Classers.


Loosen the spin luff? That allows the kite to rotate to leeward which is not what you want if you are trying to go deep. Loosen the luff if you want to go high. It is contrary to intuition, but you should tighten the luff to bring the kite further to windward to keep it in the flow for deep downwind sailing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Light air [Re: Chris9] #109231
06/08/07 10:21 AM
06/08/07 10:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
I'm no expert, but here are a couple of other things to check - Out haul all the way off, forced mast rotator over as far as it will go (95 degrees) traveler eased a couple inches and we just started experimenting with easing the main sheet a bit (just pay attention to the mast to make sure it doesn't look to bad).

I'm still working on angles, but have found you need to sail hot. if everything else is set right, the boat will power up, accelerate and let you drive down. It's a fine line, but i've found (the hard way) low and slow is slow. Good luck and let us know if you see any improvements!!

Cheers,


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: Light air [Re: Todd Berget] #109232
06/08/07 10:40 AM
06/08/07 10:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline OP
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ksurfer2  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
That's pretty much the way I had set the boat up. Traveler eased a couple inches, main eased (not nearly enough wind to put the mast in peril), crew on main beam on leward hull, me on tramp at main beam holding the mast fully rotated with my foot, jib eased, and boards up about half way. To keep any speed in the boat, I was pointing so high that I seemed to be making very little progess towards the leward mark.


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109233
06/08/07 10:53 AM
06/08/07 10:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Mike Wilson taught me (at least, I learned from losing to him) that you have to know when to change gears to low-and-slow. It feels slow, it sounds slow (no reassuring burble from your transoms), but it works in light air. Make sure you know if there is current - if there is, and it is flowing toward your mark, keep those boards down! Ride the magic carpet! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109234
06/08/07 11:09 AM
06/08/07 11:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote
To keep any speed in the boat, I was pointing so high that I seemed to be making very little progess towards the leward mark.


It seems to me that you were sailing in less than 4 knots of wind. In very light conditions it pays to sail like a monohull.


Luiz
Re: Light air [Re: Luiz] #109235
06/08/07 11:39 AM
06/08/07 11:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
enthusiast
DanWard  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
Get your head out of the boat. Light air races are almost always won by the boat that goes the right way, not the one that is setup the best.

Re: Light air [Re: DanWard] #109236
06/08/07 12:05 PM
06/08/07 12:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
I agree with Dan.

Two points:
1. Head up in the lulls looking for the next puff. Ride the puff down deep and use it. Jibe on it if possible to ride it longer.

2. Keep your boards all the way down. This keeps flow and the boat going the right direction. I've been passed too many times by boats with boards down going downwind in light air (under 4 knots). This doesn't apply over 4 knots.

Mike Hill


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Light air [Re: Mike Hill] #109237
06/08/07 12:22 PM
06/08/07 12:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
My motto on non-air lake sailing: "If we're going to drift, might as well drift toward the mark".


Jake Kohl
Re: Light air [Re: Jake] #109238
06/08/07 12:42 PM
06/08/07 12:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Chris9  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Sounds like your thinking of 0-1 not 4-6.

Todd, Only ease the outhaul if you sure it will go back on upwind. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Light air [Re: Chris9] #109239
06/08/07 01:04 PM
06/08/07 01:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
member
Todd Berget  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
you need to fix your outhaul....

In the superlight stuff, i've been tempted to try to just point the boat DDW and try to go wing on wing...

I've seen J-105's do this with some success and would be curious to see if it could work on an I20.

Very good points about getting your head out of the boat. Look for the pressure and go to it. I've been schooled many times by someone else on this board on this. huge gains can be made by finding a puff and "hooking" onto it.

T


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: Light air [Re: Todd Berget] #109240
06/08/07 02:01 PM
06/08/07 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
It works just fine as long as THE CREW gets it back on prior to mainsheet being cranked on. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Light air [Re: Jake] #109241
06/08/07 11:21 PM
06/08/07 11:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
veteran
Tornado  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
I agree with Jake...tensioning the spin halyard adds draft/shape to the luff of the spin....while easing flattens it. You can test this while ashore with the sail raised and sighting along the luff under different tensions. You can get more tension by putting more pre-bend in the pole end if needed.

Keep the spin loose-sheeted in the light...just enough to keep her inflated...luff should curl and re-fill periodically. Over sheeting is death!

Sail as high as needed to get moving, but don't go crazy trying for more speed or hull flying until true winds are beter (typically 6-8 kts TWS is the transition for the Tornado)

Keep all weight as forward as possible...keeps the transoms out and boat glides silently.

I've found it a big benefit for one person to steer & run the spinny at the same time. Makes coordinating moment by moment adjustments so much better...lees over-correcting on both the helm and sheeting with each wave/puff.
In the real drifters, consider popping a rudder and a board or boards up...but like others have said, take current affects into consideration.




Quote
Quote
Did you have you spin halyard tight? If so, ease off 6" or so. If you have a tack line, try easing that as well or instead. You may want to check your main and put on more downhaul and maybe even less mainsheet. If your boards were up and you were sailing high you may have been crabbing sideways.

I don't know about the melges, that is a big spin and in 4-6 it was helping them. Not unusually with the A Classers.


Loosen the spin luff? That allows the kite to rotate to leeward which is not what you want if you are trying to go deep. Loosen the luff if you want to go high. It is contrary to intuition, but you should tighten the luff to bring the kite further to windward to keep it in the flow for deep downwind sailing.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Light air [Re: ksurfer2] #109242
06/08/07 11:56 PM
06/08/07 11:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
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W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Important to know when the boat goes faster strait off the wind. It is different for all boats.
My Hydra goes faster strait off the wind until 8 knotts of wind when ity starts to pay to tack.
This is with only main and jib so with a spinny the formula might be different but some timed runs in a steady breaze will let you know and after that you just have to define the critical wind speed when the change occurs.


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