The proposition is that F 16 sailors have short boat syndrome and can't keep it in their pants. This is causing a problem with other boat sailors getting sick of dealing with them trumpeting themselves over other threads........

Warbird you pr**k I just want to tell you my boat is better than your boat and your attitude really stinks.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've had an Inter 17 and a F16, I feel I am in a unique position to giggle alot about all this crap !

So you are saying that F16s are slow.....

No one who has actually sailed an F16 thinks it's slow. Go back and read the latest Alter Cup posts. Of course, any boat is fast when it's being sailed by experts.

For the average sailor, the F16s strong point is its versatility. You can sail 1 or 2 up and it's light- you can wheel it around the beach or parking light without getting a hernia. Additionally, compared to an A cat, it is much more affordable.

Won't make a difference Jake.

Now who's stirring the pot!? Not that I object.

Once again, the F17 can be sailed 1 up or 2 up as well, and going by the F16's I have raced against, the boats seem to be about the same speed. The extra weight of the F17 is probably made up for by it's length which is almost 18 feet. All that from a fellow rookie F17 sailor.

One big difference between an expert sailor and a rookie sailor is reading the wind. We rookies rarely talk about that on this forum. Maybe it's because we ain't very good at it. We can drive the hell outta our boats all for nothing if we are racing the day after a strong cold front has gone through, and the wind is shifting all over the place. And you can forget about following because things on the water are different by the time you get there.

I'd also like to point out something about singlehanded sailing when trying to race one of these experts, and that is seeing. Yep seeing, seeing the wind on the water, seeing how the land will affect that wind, seeing the marks, and seeing what's happening on the course (how the race is shaping up). Experience sailors can pick up all this just with a quick glance due to years of sailing. So, if you are a rookie, you are trying to learn how to sail your boat, AND do(or learn) all that other stuff to. So, it's quite hard to close the gap. On a two man boat you can get an "expert" crew to guide you around the course, and you can do well IF you are a good boat driver. I think these expert guys just get a bit frustrated with the "level of knowledge" on the forum sometimes. They probably wish everyone was on the same boat so folks could get up to speed faster rather than making the same mistakes year after year like I used to do with an improperly setup mast for example until the Unirig master gave me a hint..........

But there it is again. It's not just about boat setup and boat weight.

Tom

Compaq Keyboard #124

You ARE the pot!

Calling someone a pot... that's just rude.

The above comment is me yanking Jake's chain. Why did I do it? Don't know, but I'm sure it's Bob's fault some how.

Looks like I made another Rookie mistake. I forgot to remind you other rooks about the tide (if you sail on the coast) in my earlier post. Even if you do all the other things correctly, you may find yourself in an opposing tide while the leaders are cruising in an area where the tide isn't affecting them or is possibly helping them.

I remembered this during my afternoon 4 mile run which is directly in front of Pensacola Pass. I have learned so many lessons at that pass and have made sooooo many mistakes there. I have seen catamarans stuck in the current sitting almost dead in the water (on incoming tide days) while the guys near shore are just flying sailing out of the pass ...............this probably works the same for any pass or inlet. You have to know what the tide is doing when sailing through one of these places.

Also, sometimes buoy races have a leg that is affected by the tide. To beat the big boys, you have to know about this.

Another thing us rooks sometimes forget is the clocking wind on prevailing wind days............

So, what's my point with all this. I guess it's that boat weight and setup ain't the only thing going on out there. And just because you put your shroud in hole # 6 down like the local expert does, don't necessarily guarantee that you have the right setup. Then there's weight distribution ............some rooks like to sail their boats while being trapped out on the very sterns of their boats. Or if you are a lake H16 sailor like I was, that 48 quart cooler full of beer strapped in the center forward ain't gonna counter balance two 170 pound dudes sitting at the back of the tramp each with a 16 oz Miller Lite in their hands. But that is fun cat racing!!! A bunch of H16's with there bows pointing to the sky trying to race on another................

Tom

Compaq Keyboard # 248

Probably why I have a Taipan 4.9 : ) You bite like a Mako Shark dude. : )
You will never get me further into loving the light 16 that I do now so tell someone else.
I was asking about the Nacra F17 in another post cause it looks like a good tough beater and some real fun.
I don't really understand why people like one particualr sport team...type of art....type of car....there is no perfect boat and no perfect World so why not chill out and enjoy it ALL?
But the good thing is that this post is started to be where you can throw the dirt, so go for it!

Sorry, I'm not the best communicator in the world. I'm not talking to any particular group of catamaran sailor. I'm talking to all rookie cat sailors. I was trying to explain why sometimes the really good sailors get frustrated with the forum.............this thread seemed to be in response to the F17 tuning thread so I put it here.

I probably should have stopped after the first paragraph but it was a slow day ................


Tom

I don't understand why all cat sailors aren't sailing the A class. It's the boat to beat at any regatta at which it participates. All the F14's, F16's, F18's, yada yada ad infinitum are trying to be as sophisticated but are simply VW's by comparison. It's gotta be the quickest one-up o.t.b sailboat in the world. It's the simplest, most easily rigged and sailed. It doesn't need a forward hand. It's light, great looking, easily managed both on and off the water, doesn't need a kite, and costs a fortune......................

yeah I know that, but that's because we don't all have one.

Imagine the fleet sizes if we all had an 'A'.

Stop all the posturing, arguing, sledging, re-inventing the wheel bull$#!+, GET AN A!!!

Bern

YEERRR!!!!

Wow, there it is again. I think this forum should be renamed the " My Boat is Better Than Your Boat Forum. "

The A is a good boat, and many times it looks very fast because most of them are sailed by very good sailors with lots of experience. Who else would put that much money into one. BUT, I have seen them beaten boat for boat by F17's for example. I've even beaten a few (at the Alter Cup Qualifier 2005 I think it was), but that was probably more about the wind speed than the boat. The spinnaker on the F17 beat the A boats that day.

Most all the new boats are really good! Any one of them can beat the other when sailed by a good sailor. I was lucky enough to see an F17 beat a bunch of F18's and Nacra 20's boat for boat in several bouy races, and those 18's and 20's were sailed by very good sailors. But it was more about the guy on the F17 than the boat ...............

How about this example, Did anyone see the America's Cup series with NZ vs Prada? I believe NZ won like the first three races all due to picking the correct side of the course. If NZ's tactician had been on Prada, that boat may very easily have won those races...............

Tom

Damn you warbird!

AND WHATS WRONG WITH A VW??????

Damn, I love this place!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

I think you'll find that this is not really how things are on the actual race course.

The boats to beat are the F18's and it has been that way for several years now.

If a VW gets you across the finish line ahead of a Ferrari then I choose the VW !


Wouter