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Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110521
06/28/07 05:03 PM
06/28/07 05:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
Paper Tiger was business built by "Tiger Boats" for many years and I have owned three. So there is the argument that they stopped production.
Tiger Boats built some but only a few Tiger Sharks, I think less than 30...But they were also home built by a few people. The Paper Tiger was designed as a home build but became so successful that TB started up.

I also want to say that this is not a personal attack or a particularly anti Hobie one. For me it is a general disapointment in business direction. A whole lot of people in the world have had enormous pleasure from what Hobie started.
But it is interesting that the most successful boat is the one he designed for no other reason than that it would be a great sailboat.

Last edited by warbird; 06/28/07 05:17 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110522
06/28/07 05:16 PM
06/28/07 05:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
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So that makes Trifoiler, Hobie 30 mono, Hobie Fox, H13, H14, H15, TheMightyHobie18, H17, H20.


If we have to include the 13, 15 and Fox (Euro boats) in the list...

We have to expand the list of available fiberglass product to include all of the Hobie France products that are still available:

Hobie currently sells...

Fiberglass:

Hobie Dragoon
Hobie 14
Hobie 15
Hobie 15 Club
Hobie 16
Hobie Max
Hobie Fx-One
HObie Pacific
Hobie Tiger
Hobie Fox

Not just three...


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110523
06/28/07 05:17 PM
06/28/07 05:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
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it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dies (moulds) for free


Before you get too excited about getting the molds... This concept has been raised before, after other models have been discontinued. It doesn't work, but I would think we would always listen to a serious offer.

We will still be using them to build replacement hulls when needed and we are going to continue to supply replacement parts for many, many years to come.



Why not do as Reg / Rob White do with Hurricane 5.9 hulls; they build the hulls and Andy Webb in Harwich fits out the boats and sells them on.

Afterall, The Hobie 20 is very very similar to the Hurricane 5.9 !


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110524
06/28/07 05:34 PM
06/28/07 05:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....
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Which boat type is the next to be discontinued in this glass fibre death match for the "bottom line" - award.

The Hobie 16 will outlive ****.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: hobie1616] #110525
06/28/07 06:17 PM
06/28/07 06:17 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Matt:

How about developing a F-16 boat. Seems to be where things are going. I would love to by a new Hobie as a replacement for my current Hobie 17. But I have to look at the Blade as I need one I can sail one up most of the time and with grand daughter when she can. By the way I have owned a 14 Turbo, 16 and now 17, along with Mystere 4.3.

Doug

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110526
06/28/07 07:40 PM
06/28/07 07:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Matt,

Why exactly was allowing open class in to a Hobie clubs regatta the problem?

I argue that the problem was that the HCA allowed their yacht clubs (fleets) to conduct races for a Hobie class with less then 5 boats.

If HCA was serious about the notion of One Design then they would operate like many of the one design sailing Yacht Clubs... When a specific Hobie class did not meet the numbers... Out would go their start, class and trophies instantly no racing for that regatta (Back in the day...the Hobie SI's declared... 5 boats = a class or no race! I assume they sent people home it was before my time.)

One design classes hang on to their niche in a yacht club by RUTHLESSLY throwing out classes that do not meet the participation requirements of the Yacht club.. They argue... Hey... access to racing is king... If you want to race... then pick one of the fleets that is viable on our pond. don't like this policy ... fine!... go find a club that matches your interest. What! none exist on the pond! oh well better get used to the idea of racing a XXX. When space comes available a new class is allowed into the club (that is the hard part though finding that new class).

The Hobie Class Association did not have their clubs (hobie fleets) do this ... They did not put the screws to their sailors in dying classes to maintain the class or switch over. The emphasis became just sail a boat with an H on it. ... A one design yacht club would have said... Hey... 4 Hobie 18's...average turnout for two years!... SORRY!.... No class or racing at all for you guys... It's either a 16 or a 20 for you if you want to race at all much less in one design catamarans!

So, the mistake the HCA made was not in allowing open class... rather it was in not killing off the fleets that failed the 5 boat minimum at a regatta and pushing those Hobie sailors into the open class. Instead, HCA lowered the bar... It is now ONE Stinkin boat = a class.... (maybe you can call it a class ... but I hardly call it a race with just one boat)


So, when the HCA saw the general decline in cat racing and said OK we will play a zero sum game Hey You guys.. .. come over and race in our Hobie game we will convert you to our brand Life will be good again. The HCA did not win this game. The HCA misunderstood open class racers and how they would behave. The Hobie clubs said OK... we allow for an open class... Those sailors will see all of this Hobie One design activity... and switch out of open class and into one of the Hobie OD classes. This was a complete misread of what these open class sailors were interested in by sailing their particular boat. These sailors may have liked one design if it happened but the fact of the matter was they were perfectly happy to participate in an HCA open class regatta... OR one of their own open class regattas OR not at all. They liked the boat they had, the level of commitment it required, etc etc they clearly ranked performance or some other factor over one design racing. Moreover, they saw these tiny Hobie classes of less then 5 boats and saw where one guy always won and one guy was always DFL and said Eh no thanks I am not switching classes that one design race isnt much better then what I have now.

Bottom line, I dont see any logic behind the notion that hosting an Open Class hurt Hobie one design sailing. It also most certainly true that open class did not HELP Hobie one design sailing though.

Now having said this Its not clear that you can stand against the tide of history and what sailors want to sail. These monohull fleets are not flourishing with the survival of the fit strategy either. So killing off weak classes isnt the whole story. I think that open class as a fall back if one design falters WOULD have worked well if you had put the low attendance Hobies into the open. (Toss in the those 4 Hobie 18s along with left over P16s P18s etc etc you might have maintained interest in racing catamarans.) .

So Since the HCA tossed the open class in the mid Atlantic. What has happened. Division 11 Hobie turnout has not grown. They have attracted one open class sailor Back into his old boat, a TheMightyHobie18 to sail with his niece at the mini mega this year. The H20 class died. A 20 boat A class fleet and a 15 boat A class fleet emerged out of thin air and the open class still putters along. Finally, A Cats are well on their way to taking over a one design yacht club.

So, while its clear that an open class does not help Hobie OD racing I cant see how its has hurt the Hobie OD scene either.


So what am I missing How did open class HURT (I know it hasnt helped the HCA scene).


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110527
06/28/07 09:13 PM
06/28/07 09:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

The thing about the smaller companies is that they are focused on product and not profit.


That is the biggest load of BS I have read in a while. *Every* company actually has an obligation to it's stakeholders (owners, creditors, employees, customers etc) to be profitable. As nice a guy as Daryl and all the other smaller companies are, I'm positive that they haven't invested all that time and money without expecting a return.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110528
06/28/07 09:21 PM
06/28/07 09:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32
Serge L. Offline
newbie
Serge L.  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32
just to keep the record straight, Tremolino tri is not dead, there is a new builder, modified models, 2 new hulls are built right now, it uses Aquarius-supplied parts for the rig and it's still an awesome boat.

Serge

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110529
06/28/07 09:22 PM
06/28/07 09:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
That is what the people are saying here...Hobie are making simple business decisions...and not taking responsiiblity for who they are, what legacy they have and what actually makes the World go around. It is time for business to understand that Ideal and quality trumps dollars and mediochrety every time. We look to people like Hobie for leadership and what do we get????Simple business decisions..it is the money mantra.
A chicken in every pot and a rotomold in every driveway.
If ever there was a reason not to encourage people into cat sailing it is this.
When I got my first cat it was a fibreglass PT, beater. That was 25 years ago and that boat is still a good little boat that sails fast and can be updated into a flyier. My boats since, while second hand have all had integrity until I have an excellent Hydra 16, Nacra 14 Squared and Taipan..... all still excellent sail boats and one is 25 years old......
vibrant shmibrant, Hobie reaks of midmanagement and design graduates. Rather than gettting rid of boat makers, get rid of a few people in the office.


Hmmm... How many Hobie 20's have you bought in the last 5 years to support the class? Get real - do you think that (insert any boat builder here) should spend money on a boat that has been not profitable for years and not likely to ever be, just in case you might want one in the future?

It would appear that you have *never* bought a new boat which makes it a bit rich for you to get up on your soap box. Bottom line - sailboat making is not charity. If you want a class to survive - buy the boats and without question they will keep making them. Unless you are prepared to dip into your own pocket then don't bitch when they move onto profitable lines.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110530
06/28/07 09:33 PM
06/28/07 09:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
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This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Also known as age hardening. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_hardening. It is particularly prevalent in areas where there are large changes in temperature. Age (or shelf) hardening of aluminum changes it's bending characteristics and makes the section more brittle.

In a previous life I ran a company that curved and bent metals for all sorts of applications. One was aluminum bull bars for cars and trucks. A pack of ally tube that was open at one end and left outside for a month over summer was useless for bending even though it looked fine. The covered end would be fine but the end that was exposed to the weather would snap like a dry twig. Given time, the entire length would be the same even when it was covered.

Tiger Mike

p.s. yep - bored at work today!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110531
06/28/07 09:41 PM
06/28/07 09:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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Michigan
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Quote
Quote
This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Also known as age hardening. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_hardening. It is particularly prevalent in areas where there are large changes in temperature. Age (or shelf) hardening of aluminum changes it's bending characteristics and makes the section more brittle.

In a previous life I ran a company that curved and bent metals for all sorts of applications. One was aluminum bull bars for cars and trucks. A pack of ally tube that was open at one end and left outside for a month over summer was useless for bending even though it looked fine. The covered end would be fine but the end that was exposed to the weather would snap like a dry twig. Given time, the entire length would be the same even when it was covered.

Tiger Mike

p.s. yep - bored at work today!


What prevents this from happening with a finished mast that is left in the florida sun all day everyday? Does anodizing prevent/limit this?

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110532
06/28/07 10:02 PM
06/28/07 10:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

Plain heat treatment hardening (English name ?) use the ability of a certain metals to change their own metal structure to different forms. These changes are nearly always the results of temperature. As such there is no need for any alloy elements and as such it is a different hardening method to precipitation hardening. A good example of this plain hear hardening is normal iron/steel. Heat it and then cool it very rapidly and it will became very hard (and brittle). This can then be soften again by mildly heating it for a given period of time at a lower temperature. Allowing portions of the dissimilarity to morph back to less hard grid structures.
Wouter


Do you mean "case" hardening? Which typically happens with tool steels and/or annealing where a metal is "softened" for machining or bending and then hardened again afterwards. There are a heap of different techniques for different desired results. Don't underestimate the effects of age hardening on Aluminum though. In some climates it can be very surprising!

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110533
06/28/07 10:12 PM
06/28/07 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
life without toys is a void - nietzsche


I'm boatless.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110534
06/28/07 10:23 PM
06/28/07 10:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

What prevents this from happening with a finished mast that is left in the florida sun all day everyday? Does anodizing prevent/limit this?


Nothing. I am referring to those components that are bent/curved such as beams and tiller tubes etc. Once the bend is done, the age hardening would have little/no impact. In the context of a mast, over time I guess it will become slightly stiffer but doubt that it would have much impact on how the boat sails.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110535
06/28/07 11:51 PM
06/28/07 11:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
The BS you call it is about wanting to deliver the best and profits follow, like Walt said, build it and they will come.
Profits for shareholders is exactly the excuse the Million dollar CEOs use as a mantra to rip people off in every corperation...it is getting tired sport and it is unsustainable..check out the planet..it does not like it....and I do not mean global warming, I mean creating too much rubbish.
Time to suck it in and make excellent, long life product, not crap.
There is nothing wrong with providing a SERVICE and getting a profit for that rather than reluctantly putting out substandard service for a target profit...and the highest possible profit all of the time...this mentality creates the devious mendacious marketing we see every day.
"never mind the quality, feel the width!"

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110536
06/29/07 12:01 AM
06/29/07 12:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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warbird  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
I don't have the money to buy new boats. But I have good boats because good boats were built and on sold. That gives new boat buyers a market to sell into so they can afford to upgrade. Or do you give your second hand boats away? So the three boats I have are still inservice, highly maintained and have many years left in them. The purchasing and maintaining of them directly contributes to the compaines thanks. The eco-footprint the companies have in these three boats is minimised by the long life potential people like me put into them.
Do you imagine I would EVER buy a second hand Getaway? It is the Skoda of 16 foot boats for gods sake; it's freezing, winter and raining and I'll bitch about whatever I like.

Last edited by warbird; 06/29/07 12:04 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110537
06/29/07 03:37 AM
06/29/07 03:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
The BS you call it is about wanting to deliver the best and profits follow, like Walt said, build it and they will come.
Profits for shareholders is exactly the excuse the Million dollar CEOs use as a mantra to rip people off in every corperation...it is getting tired sport and it is unsustainable..check out the planet..it does not like it....and I do not mean global warming, I mean creating too much rubbish.


You are living in la-la land. I use that mantra when it comes to the business I run. To say that I rip people off is highly offensive and very wrong. For any CEO to deliberately run a company at a loss (where an future surplus is not likely) is not ethical and illegal in many countries. Guess what the first department that gets cut when a company starts to run out of money (a curious side effect of un-profitable companies)? People get sacked and it usually starts in the R&D area where they develop the new products for tomorrow.

When you manage a company or have any decision making power, please let me know so that I can be sure I have no money invested there.

Tiger Mike

Last edited by TigerMike; 06/29/07 03:48 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110538
06/29/07 03:46 AM
06/29/07 03:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
I don't have the money to buy new boats. But I have good boats because good boats were built and on sold. That gives new boat buyers a market to sell into so they can afford to upgrade. Or do you give your second hand boats away? So the three boats I have are still inservice, highly maintained and have many years left in them. The purchasing and maintaining of them directly contributes to the compaines thanks. The eco-footprint the companies have in these three boats is minimised by the long life potential people like me put into them.
Do you imagine I would EVER buy a second hand Getaway? It is the Skoda of 16 foot boats for gods sake; it's freezing, winter and raining and I'll bitch about whatever I like.


Hehe I can see why you probably don't have the money for new boats. It's very easy to give advice to others in what to do with their $$$ but it's not so easy whey you are in the hot seat. In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.

As for the Getaway, what's wrong with it? It has a target market and seems to fit the bill nicely. Can't see me buying one either new or old either but I'm not the target.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110539
06/29/07 04:17 AM
06/29/07 04:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Tigermike is right here :

Quote

In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.



The bloody guy sails and owns both the Hydra 16 and the Taipan 4.9; there is no way he is ever going to be satisfied with any Hobie beach cat product.

Some Hobie guys need to get out more; there is a whole other beach cat world out there.

Although I do agree that Warbird is coming on a bit strong.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/29/07 04:17 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110540
06/29/07 06:11 AM
06/29/07 06:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
You have made this a personal attack Mike, to that degree you can eat a bug.
I never sugested a company should be run at a loss, just that profit is not reason to produce crap product.
I sail a Hydra to sail with a mate who has one and because it is a finely tuned and quality sail..rather than the H16 which is not.
I sail a Nacra 14 beacuse it is fun and tough and a good beater in big wind and WAY better than the H14.
And I sail a Taipan because it is WAY better and faster one man boat than any equal length and weight Hobie product ever will be.
It is not that I can't buy a Hobie, it is that I don't want one and the way they are going, I never will.
You say the Getaway is a good boat..but you wouldn't have one.....imagine that.
Re making money, I paint and sail and live here..where do you live Mike? How often are you on the motorway..the nearest is 300k away from my life..money is well second in my life style choices.

And you are wrong mike, as the Tiger comes into a price range I think it's worth I will have one...or a Nacra 17..whichever comes first.

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