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Re: One more time [Re: Wouter] #110581
06/30/07 05:08 PM
06/30/07 05:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

In one club we lost this racing scene to mismanagement and surprisingly enough the "good fun" days were almost immediately gone. And interestingly enough in a club with about 100 boats on its parking for 15 to 20 years and an active club racing fleet of ONLY 10 boats, it collapsed to 50 to 60 boats in parking and no racing fleet within some 2 to 3 years. In effect is lost 40 to 50 boats when only 10 boats quite club racing. It has not recovered yet and probably won't soon.


Interesting observations. I wouldn't have picked such a dramatic effect. I know we are getting a bit off the topic but what do you mean by mis-management? What sorts of things happened and how did you (I mean as a group) turn the situation around?

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110582
06/30/07 06:37 PM
06/30/07 06:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
I am an artist and work or don't work when I want.
Most people are just treading the mill and trying to get ahead and cannot find time or energy to fight back.
I know that electronically I can create company records that I can request under or official information act to trap the companies in their deciept.
Most companies these days record all phone conversations. These too can be requested.
The mendacity of the typical company is easy to trap these days given these sorts of records.
I have a problem with my contract provided router. I know every time I turn it off it will show on the service providers records. SO I do not have to ring and wait for 20 minutes to tell my provider this. I just ell them once by phone that the problem is a continuing one and I will ring if it gets better...
I have to pay in advance for the service so the company, knowing my router is not providing promised service are not fulfilling their contract with me in an honest way. I have paid, they are not providing.
When people say they will ring back and don't the conversation in which they made promises is recorded so one request for all this information supplies me with a company provided record with which I can take then to a disputes tribunal. They cannot use a lawyer and drive my costs up. They will fold before the disputes tribunal and give me a substantial credit and a new router.
My dealings with companies tell me this. Never trust them and presume they are knowingly in the wrong.

Last edited by warbird; 06/30/07 06:43 PM.
Re: One more time [Re: C2 Mike] #110583
07/01/07 04:58 AM
07/01/07 04:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Interesting observations. I wouldn't have picked such a dramatic effect. I know we are getting a bit off the topic but what do you mean by mis-management?



Scheduling significantly less club races per year. Not being on top of who has race committee duty for the day. Cancelling races when say only 6 boats are going to race when the club house rules dictate 7 boats at minimum. Doing only 1 race a day because the conditions weren't perfect. Taking 1 hour or more breaks between each individual race. Would take forever for the results to be posted. General slacking on everything related to club racing.


Quote

What sorts of things happened and how did you (I mean as a group) turn the situation around?


What happened was that the active crews started second guessing "the racing", so if the inland had some grey skies then more and more crews would not even go to the beach. This resulted in the club getting less often the minimal amount of racers and more often cancelling the race day to the sachrine of the crews that did show up. Within a very short time no crews showed up at all unless the conditions were absolutely perfect (which is rare). With this club activity gone less recreational sailors showed and the active sailing started going to neighbouring clubs to do racing. From then on it was downhill very quickly. Some aggrevating happens were added to that and that was that.

I'm one of the crews that switched in that period. I was one of the last to do so but I have never looked back. The latter 2 years just weren't the same as the period before. I didn't feel any connection to the club anymore and it is hard to be friends with crews that are on the beach only 5 times a year or less. I felt lonely and figured I got never feel worse then that after I switch and only feel better so I did.

The club I'm not had similar happens right before I became a member there and they solved this by giving extra attention and status to the club racing. They find 2 volunteers (active sailor) to become the dedicated RC of the club, put money into maintaining a RC boat that could do the RC work in all conditions and just scheduled club races every weekend were there wasn't racing outside of the club. This means about 9 to 10 race days per season and our season runs from april to october. So on average a club race day in every two weeks.

The dedicated RC we had was firm in everything. They layed down full race-course that would also be found at larger events and they would always lay out the course irrespectabally of the weather and how many boats would show up. Even when the winds were non-existant or downright nuclear, they would show up to the club, make preparations and postpone the racing the wait for improvements. If the winds were within 3 knots and 25 knots then the racing would be held, rain, sunshine, cold, didn't matter. The races were always done back to back, so no return to the beach for lng breaks. Preliminary Results were read out loud while the racing crews were drinking a beer at the club house. Neighbouring clubs were actively invited and kept up to date on our club racing.

What happened. All the crews would show up EVEN when the conditions were mostly likely to bad to race. But because you can now unless you have stood on the beach for a while all crews didn't take the risk of losing out on several points and came anyway. Most definately also because everybody would be there anyway, and it would always be great fun drinking with the others and generally talking non-sense. Of course other club members would show up as well and the group in the bar could be quite large. Producing results including the times lead to the crews really going for it, trying to improve themselves over the season. Newbies showed up and felt more secure because alot of more experienced sailors were out there with them often giving valuable advice. Etc, etc, etc.

From there the club racing scene crew back and quite a few crews bought brand new boats over the years. They felt they could justify it and several of them started racing outside of the club racing scene.

This active group of about 15 crews bought (new) over the last 3 years : 3 Infusions, 2 Tigers, 1 Capricorn, 2 inter-20, 1 FX-one and 3 F16's. The other crews bought relatively new second handers and/or 1 year old suits of sails to upgrade. In general this group is creating turn-over beyond their numerical size. Just outside of this group I believe 2 new nacra 500, 2 new nacra 570, 1 new nacra 580 and a handful of second handers were bought. Some of this group are recreational racers/sailors but of a relatively active grade. 2/3 of our clubmembership is old beaten up boats which are badly maintained and who show up less then 5 time a season. In this group there is no money to be earned next to their membership fees. But they do enjoy the buzz of the larger club from time to time, looking at new boats bought, talking with the new owners, asking for a testride. And this buzz comes from ....

You'll get the point

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 07/01/07 05:01 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110584
07/10/07 03:19 AM
07/10/07 03:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
malgray Offline
newbie
malgray  Offline
newbie

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
WOW what a marathon!
I have been a catsailor in Australia for thirty years. I have been a Hobie dealer for more than half of those. I've seen the boom and I've seen the bust. Things here appear similar to how they are in the USA.
People still love catamaran SAILING but they increasingly couldn't give a rats rectum about catamaran RACING. Maybe that is because the racing fraternity is full of painfully opinionated people who bleat on, with utopian ideals?
Right now I can't get enough used Hobie Cats. Everybody wants one but no one turns up to racing regattas.
Over the years, I've conducted youth training and regattas. I have sponsored and run many racing clinics. I formed the F18 class here. Our racing numbers are still declining.
I am glad that I have a rotomold range of boats and sailing kayaks to sell and make money from, so that I can stay in business long enough for Catamaran racing to become popular again.(if it ever happens)
Instead of criticizing Hobie for choosing to run a business in a way so that it EXISTS in the future, may I suggest that some of you could use your energy to promote the sport.
Some plastic boats are recyclable

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: malgray] #110585
07/10/07 09:27 AM
07/10/07 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
WOW what a marathon!
I have been a catsailor in Australia for thirty years. I have been a Hobie dealer for more than half of those. I've seen the boom and I've seen the bust. Things here appear similar to how they are in the USA.
People still love catamaran SAILING but they increasingly couldn't give a rats rectum about catamaran RACING. Maybe that is because the racing fraternity is full of painfully opinionated people who bleat on, with utopian ideals?
Right now I can't get enough used Hobie Cats. Everybody wants one but no one turns up to racing regattas.
Over the years, I've conducted youth training and regattas. I have sponsored and run many racing clinics. I formed the F18 class here. Our racing numbers are still declining.
I am glad that I have a rotomold range of boats and sailing kayaks to sell and make money from, so that I can stay in business long enough for Catamaran racing to become popular again.(if it ever happens)
Instead of criticizing Hobie for choosing to run a business in a way so that it EXISTS in the future, may I suggest that some of you could use your energy to promote the sport.
Some plastic boats are recyclable


Well, again, I don't anyone here begrudges the fact that Hobie makes what it makes to stay in business - we're happy about that, really. But people here are bummed that our side of the sport seems to not be in Hobie's business plan anymore.

Also - be careful, lots of us here are actively involved in keeping the sport going and growing. If it weren't for some of our efforts the sport would already be gone in more areas than it is. I feel bummed that the Hobie dealer literally around the corner from our Fleet has no interest in what is going on in their backyard simply because they feel the day of 100 boat regattas is over. Maybe if there was a little interest we could help bring those days back. In the meantime our new OD fleets are A-Cat, Nacra-20, and probably soon to be F-16. In addition to the regular open class (I mean X-boats).

We have continued to pull 14 boats for every Tuesday night race this year. While that doesn't sound like much, that's up from just around 5 boats a few years ago, and it's every Tuesday night. And that's in addition to the A-Cat and N-20 OD schedule that also goes on In Galesville for the West River Sailing club.

Anyways, I wish continued success to Hobie and all its dealers. I also can't wait to see what's next out of Vectorworks.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110586
07/10/07 01:56 PM
07/10/07 01:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Hobie Cat Company is interested in our side of the sport(Racing).
There are 215 team registered for the H16 Worlds. They will all sail on factory supplied boats.
There are old salts like John Hauser, past Champions like Hobie P Alter(Jr.)with his son and young guns like Fleet 204's own Matt Perkins and Mike Siau going to sail the opens and represent the USA.
They continue to support the Class Association by helping with newsletter printings, lots of raffle prizes for regattas and have supplied H16's and Tigers for Alter cups along with US Sailing Youth Championships. I could go on, but maybe you just can't see it sailing another brand of boat. You can't expect to get dealer support when you buy someone else's boat. They have to put their attention where it will bring a return.
My feeling for some time is the H16 will stay strong, the Tiger will do well,mainly from the work of the F18 class, and the other Hobie boats will hang around for years even if they are not building new ones.

There are 94 boats for Div 16's Mini-Mega with people still looking for charter boats.
Mini-Mega


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110587
07/11/07 08:34 AM
07/11/07 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Hobie Cat Company is interested in our side of the sport(Racing).
There are 215 team registered for the H16 Worlds. They will all sail on factory supplied boats.
There are old salts like John Hauser, past Champions like Hobie P Alter(Jr.)with his son and young guns like Fleet 204's own Matt Perkins and Mike Siau going to sail the opens and represent the USA.
They continue to support the Class Association by helping with newsletter printings, lots of raffle prizes for regattas and have supplied H16's and Tigers for Alter cups along with US Sailing Youth Championships. I could go on, but maybe you just can't see it sailing another brand of boat. You can't expect to get dealer support when you buy someone else's boat. They have to put their attention where it will bring a return.
My feeling for some time is the H16 will stay strong, the Tiger will do well,mainly from the work of the F18 class, and the other Hobie boats will hang around for years even if they are not building new ones.

There are 94 boats for Div 16's Mini-Mega with people still looking for charter boats.
Mini-Mega


Hobie OD racing on the Chesapeake is dead. I know there are other areas that are active and that Hobie supplies boats. Excellent. However, the only action now on the Bay is Open class and the other established OD classes mentioned. And we've been growing it. My approach to the dealer at the boat show was not as an owner of another boat, but as the Captain of a local Fleet literally in their backyard wondering if they wanted to participate. I'm not asking them to support my non-Hobie boat. But I do wonder why they wouldn't like to see some presence for their product in a growing scene. And my comment about Hobie not paying attention to our side of the sport is regarding their dwindling product lineup for the non-roto crowd.

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