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tough rules question/situation #110973
07/08/07 03:53 PM
07/08/07 03:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline OP
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SteveT  Offline OP
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Colorado
OK, lets see how this one comes out:

Two boats (“A” and “B”) are heading downwind and converging on opposite tacks. The wind is blowing 15 to 18 knots so both boats are moving fast. “B”, on port, safely passes in front of “A” and jibes to starboard and is now leeward of “A”. During the jibe, “A” passes “B”, but “B” quickly gets up to speed and gains an overlap. Both boats are now three or four boat lengths from the finish and are passing the left-hand leeward gate (leaving it to port) which is almost directly upwind from the committee boat. “A” is footing off and almost dead downwind and screaming for room, while “B” is heading up trying to get to the finish and not hit the committee boat. “B” passes “A” without making contact and finishes without hitting the committee boat; and to “B”’s surprise, “A” rounds the left gate and heads out for another leg of the race and starts yelling for “B” to do circles, but “B” has already crossed the finish line

Some qualifiers:
It’s not clear when “B” obtained an overlap after jibing, but definitely well before reaching the leeward mark. At 15 knots, 40 feet gets covered in a hurry and it’s hard to tell if it was outside the two-boat-length circle, but “A” insists that the overlap came after the two-boat-length circle.

“A” started 10 minutes ahead of the “B” and was sailed by one of the fleet’s top-ranked sailors, and most all other boats in his class had already finished. “B” hailed “A” and asked his intentions but was not given an answer. “A” did not hail for room to round the mark until both boats were alongside it.

Why did “B” wait so long to jibe and head for the finish? He was covering his closest competitor who also waited to jibe.

Why was the gate so close to the committee boat? It was very windy all day with gusts well over 25 knots and the mark probably drifted.

There are loads of rules in play here: room for “A” to round a mark, room for “B” to pass a continuing obstruction, leeward boat, etc. The sailors met on the beach and talked it over, but came to no conclusion. There was no protest, but there might have been if it was a bigger event and it would be nice to know Who was in the right here.


H-20 #896
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Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: SteveT] #110974
07/08/07 06:32 PM
07/08/07 06:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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ncik  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
So were they in different fleets with different starts? ie. not racing against each other?

Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: SteveT] #110975
07/08/07 07:03 PM
07/08/07 07:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel

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Michigan
Can someone draw a pic? I am having trouble picturing the finish line/gate and the boat's orientation to it.

Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: PTP] #110976
07/08/07 07:18 PM
07/08/07 07:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
old hand
ncik  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
A couple of sketches before, during and after would be good.

Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: PTP] #110977
07/08/07 07:34 PM
07/08/07 07:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline OP
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SteveT  Offline OP
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Posts: 248
Colorado
Yes, the boats were in different fleets. I'll try to post a drawing.


H-20 #896
Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: SteveT] #110978
07/08/07 11:14 PM
07/08/07 11:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 62
K
KMarshack Offline
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KMarshack  Offline
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K

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Posts: 62
Steve,

Sounds like both boats were on starboard. B is leeward, so A must keep clear. Since B is leeward, he can sail his proper course. A’s hail for “room” makes no sense since he was outside B. Room is the room needed to pass inside an overlapped boat. B wanted you to get out of his way so he could jibe for the mark, but A is not obligated. Since the mark was no longer a mark for B (he was going to finish, so the mark has no required side), normal rules of the road apply (P/S, jibing too close, etc.)

Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: SteveT] #110979
07/09/07 07:31 AM
07/09/07 07:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
See if I understand this correctly:

+A and B are in different fleets
+Both boats are on starboard
+B is heading to her downwind finish while A intends to round C-mark for another lap
+C mark is a gate and is placed upwind of the committee boat


Sounds to me like A has no rights here. B is sailing her proper course and the buoys at C are merely obstructions to her now. Both vessels are racing so racing rules apply, but both boats are not about to round the mark so the mark rounding rules do not. It also sounds like B's proper course was to maintain heading to the finish - especially since it sounds like she might have had trouble laying the finish line. Overlap doesn't really matter since mark rounding rules don't apply - No foul.

Granted, however, it would difficult for the boats to tell the intent of the other on the course.


Jake Kohl
Re: tough rules question/situation [Re: Jake] #110980
07/09/07 03:15 PM
07/09/07 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
SteveT Offline OP
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SteveT  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 248
Colorado
Jake,
Your assumptions are all correct. I was "B" in this race (H20) and "A" was an H17. As we crossed and got the overlap I asked what he was doing and all he said was "racing," which wasn't very helpfull. He's the best 17 sailor in the fleet and started 10 minutes ahead of us so I assumed he was also heading for the finish (he capsized earlier and was just trying to complete the course). If he had continued to keep me from heading up, I was in danger of hitting the committee boat. The wind had piped up by this time and we were all moving pretty fast so all of this took place in less than 30 seconds.


H-20 #896

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