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The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review #112434
07/24/07 11:42 AM
07/24/07 11:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline OP
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
It has been about 6 months now so I guess it is time to comment, read praise, the new Tiger rudders that are available for the boat. I was honored to be among the first to give them a try.

The installation requires new gudgeons that have four extra holes that should be drilled and tapped. I did not do this initially as I did not know if the rudders were going to stay on the boat…they are staying. The basic premise, of the new design, is to put the leading edge of the rudder further forward of the pivot point so the boat will turn and track easier. In my humble opinion it works great!

The old rudders, while turning the boat slightly off the wind, felt truck-like. Not at all like the “race car feel” you would expect from a truly high performance boat. I prefer to have light responsive weather helm. This allows me to feel when the boat wants to head up a bit, either due to stronger breeze or a lift. The problem with the older rudders is that when that feeling subsided and it was time to head back to the old course the boat did not want to bear off. It would almost get to the point of cavitation, which we all know is slow. I do have to say, I may sail a bit different than some on the Formula 18. I usually sail with the mainsail cleated. I know this is the lazy way to sail and not fast in puffy conditions but it allows me to finish a regatta without hurting myself. I only recently got a male crew that will take the mainsheet from me…that is faster.

The new rudders remove the heavy helm allowing me to keep the main cleated while turning down. This plays right into the way I prefer sailing.

What you have to watch out for the first couple of times you use them is turning, either for a tack or a gybe. With the pivot point back on the rudder it is like power steering. It will be easy to send your crew all over the place so be careful. Take the first few maneuvers slowly, you will get up to speed in time.

I did have to put a small spacer (I used a couple of strips of vinyl tape) to get the angle of the rudder back so I could continue having the light weather helm that I like. I went out the first time with no modifications and had completely neutral helm. I do not like to sail that way.

I have heard from others that they like the feel of the Nacras helm. I have sailed the Infusions and I20s. The I20, with the older smaller rudders, I did not like during the bear off maneuver, it cavitated quite a bit. I think that the I20s now use the same blades that are on the Infusion, which does have a nice helm. This feels very similar to that. I think this upgrade really benefits the Tiger for it’s future in Formula 18 racing.

Other things that the Tiger benefits from:
Having a crew that can play the main
The newer STX (fat head) main
The newer cut of spinnaker makes a nice ride downwind
I run the mast rotation to cleats on the hull

Things I do not have that I think will benefit the boat:
Bridle tangs a bit lower on the inside of the hull so the jib can be most efficient
Full battened jib with the roller furling taken off

Later,
Dan DeLave

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: Dan_Delave] #112435
09/24/07 09:50 AM
09/24/07 09:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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claus  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
I found your comments very interesting! I just moved to the Tiger (from H16) and I also find a tendency of the boat to turn downwind, even when going upwind. I really would like the boat to have a little wheather helm. Is this possible with the old type of rudders (changing rudder alignment or mast rake)?

I dont mind about the "truck-like" behaviour, at least for the moment.

Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: claus] #112436
09/24/07 10:30 AM
09/24/07 10:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline OP
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Dan_Delave  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Yes you can get the rudders balanced better than what you are experiencing with them presently.

I had the same problems when I got the boat. First though I have to tell you that I sailed Hobie 16s for about 17 years. In that time I learned how to get the rudders on that boat just the way I liked them, with a hint of weather helm in both directions. I then sailed the Hobie 20 for about 5 years. I set the boat up to sail as much like a 16 as I could helm-wise. When I started sailing the Tiger it got just a bit trickier to get the helm right. I was thinking that it had something to do with the fact that we are putting up double the sail area when we go downwind and that is all attached to the front. Thereby pulling the boat downwind (leehelm).

With a combination of mast rake and rudder adjustments I was able to get the boat set up with a bit of weather helm both upwind and downwind. Some people like to have leeward helm downwind as it will remind them which way to turn the boat when they get in trouble (that is lower).

Start with mast rake, then go to rudders. With the trapeze wires add a bit of line so you can measure right to the pin that attaches the bridle to the boat. Run the line back to the transom. If you make sure you are near as you can be to the top of the rudder gudgeon, you will be at a good starting place.

For the rudders you will want to kick them back a bit to increase your weather helm, like you would on a 16. It takes little adjustment to change the action of the helm. I used vinyl tape (electricians) and went in a figure eight around the bottom part of the rudder casting in order to kick the rudders back just a bit. You do not want to build it up too much. It will take some sailing sessions to get it dialed in to what you like. In the end I think I had about four layers of tape to get the rudders right. When I was happy with the results I fiberglassed a shim onto the rudder that thickness.

I had to go through the same process with the new rudders to get them to my style.

Later,
Dan

Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: Dan_Delave] #112437
09/24/07 10:44 AM
09/24/07 10:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
claus Offline
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claus  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 160
Thanx for the fast response, I will give it a try next weekend. From what you write I have not enough mast rake (it goes from the bridle pin to the edge deck/transom). I prefer leeward helm downwind and weather helm upwind, it nice to know the boat will do what it should in a gust. With the tiller you just correct this tendency.

Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: claus] #112438
10/11/07 08:16 AM
10/11/07 08:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
MarkW_F18 Offline
enthusiast
MarkW_F18  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
I installed the new rudders and gudgeons last week and sailed the Alter Cup D north event over the weekend. We had 8-12 winds, so it was not a good test for when the wind picked up. I didn't make any adjustments except for the bolt on the tiller arm needed to be moved slightly back to allow it to lock down. They did appear to be tucked under the boat more, however not necessarily raked more. It as if the rudder rotates with a more centered axis. With no adjustments, I had a slight weather helm upwind and lee helm downwind. I used the same holes to mount the gudgeons as the old ones. The new gudgeons are in 2 parts with 6 holes each. The old ones were a one-piece gudgeon with 10 holes. The 4 upper and lower holes matched up with the new gudgeons. So I just put the center bolts back in to plug those holes and I left 2 of the holes on each gudgeon without mounting them yet. Without drilling new holes, it appears as though there is about a 1/4 inch gap on the rudder pin between the lower gudgeon and the rudder casting. I'm not crazy about the rudder being able to slide up and down the pin, but it didn't create any slop. I would think that with any load it would not be an issue.

So how did they perform??? The jury is still out. They must have felt different, cause I found myself pinching more than normal the first couple of races. I also noticed that unless you get your weight on the bow that they would send up a nice roster tail. To me, they didn't feel too sensitive cause I had no problem jerking my crew around. I do think I was able to tack smoother.

Unfortunately my season is done on the F18 for the season, so it'll be next spring to tweak them more.


Mark Williams
F18 H16
http://emsa-sailing.org
Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: MarkW_F18] #112439
10/15/07 08:23 PM
10/15/07 08:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline OP
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Quote
[color:"blue"]I'm not crazy about the rudder being able to slide up and down the pin, but it didn't create any slop. I would think that with any load it would not be an issue. [/color]


I do not quite understand what you mean by this statement?

I like my boat to have slight weather helm both to weather and downwind. Some like lee helm downwind. To get a bit more weather helm use some tape maybe a couple of layers of vinyl tape at the bottom of the rudder casting. If it is not balanced from upwind to downwind you may be able to use mast rake to take care of that.

Dan

Re: The new Hobie Tiger Rudders Review [Re: Dan_Delave] #112440
10/16/07 10:21 AM
10/16/07 10:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
MarkW_F18 Offline
enthusiast
MarkW_F18  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
Quote
Quote
[color:"blue"]I'm not crazy about the rudder being able to slide up and down the pin, but it didn't create any slop. I would think that with any load it would not be an issue. [/color]


I do not quite understand what you mean by this statement?




Mounting it by using the existing holes on the boat, the distance between the gudgeons appear to be shorter in distance than the old gudgeons. So it leaves more room between the lower gudgeon and rudder casting. There were no instructions as to what was the upper and lower gudgeon. They look alike, but the bushings are on the opposite side of the other 2. I think I may have the lower gudgeons upside down since the bushing is on the top instead of the bottom, but I don't that would take up the slack.


Mark Williams
F18 H16
http://emsa-sailing.org

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