Announcements
New Discussions
Building a C-Class Racing Catamaran
by Will_R. 01/13/20 04:36 PM
Tommy Whiteside Memorial 2020
by dave mosley. 01/13/20 02:21 PM
Aus Nacra National Titles 2019-2020
by JeffS. 01/06/20 03:09 PM
What about the old Nacra 18 squared? 11' beam??
by dave mosley. 01/06/20 12:10 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Alter qualifier wind minimum? #113725
08/06/07 02:42 PM
08/06/07 02:42 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Andrew Offline OP
enthusiast
Andrew  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
The PRO at our recent Alter Cup qualifier aborted a start sequence because the wind speed was reportedly below the "required minimum wind speed" of 5.0 mph. The wind was reportedly 4.3 mph 5 ft above the foredeck of the Cal 34 RC boat. I've looked around, and cannot find a listed minimum windspeed for these events, including on the SI's for that particular regatta. I know I started races in less than that at the same event last year - there'd have been no racing Saturday otherwise!
Thanks for y'all's wisdom.


Andrew Tatton Nacra 20 "Wiggle Stick" #266 Nacra 18 Square #12
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: Andrew] #113726
08/07/07 06:19 AM
08/07/07 06:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Many classes have a "minimum wind speed" - the Hobie classes use 5 kts; the Tornados use 6 kts.

If they are used, however, they are almost always specified in the SI's. The PRO should have read the SI's for the event (I always have a set with me on the signal boat).

I don't know of any class that uses "5 mph". Still, it's the PRO's perogative to start or not start a race.

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: Andrew] #113727
08/07/07 07:37 AM
08/07/07 07:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
Andrew

This has been a problem in the past.

Portsmouth has no rules, each class has their rules, and PRO's have different opinions of what is required for a fair race. To avoid problems I normally list the minimum wind speed in the NOR. The template I used specified, 5 kts as measured by the Race Committe.

Sorry I missed the race, this year is just bad for me.

Carl

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: carlbohannon] #113728
08/07/07 07:44 AM
08/07/07 07:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Andrew

This has been a problem in the past.

Portsmouth has no rules, each class has their rules, and PRO's have different opinions of what is required for a fair race. To avoid problems I normally list the minimum wind speed in the NOR. The template I used specified, 5 kts as measured by the Race Committe.

Sorry I missed the race, this year is just bad for me.

Carl


Carl,

That very statement in the SI's created a world of pain and disharmony at the 2005 NAF18 North Americans. Seems the judges didn't think the PRO did a good enough job of "determining" he had 5 knots and threw a race out (although the PRO felt he had the wind). Best thing to do is leave it out all together and let the PRO use his discretion to decide if there is enough wind for a fair race. Adding that wording only cracks open a door.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: Jake] #113729
08/07/07 07:58 AM
08/07/07 07:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Andrew Offline OP
enthusiast
Andrew  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Thanks y'all...Those of us at the line for the first start were just a little curious when the sequence was aborted 27 seconds before the start (prep had been down 33 seconds) and coincidentally 4/7 spinnaker boats were still 3-4 minutes away (upwind, they had sailed past the start area and were coming back down). Anyway, thanks again!


Andrew Tatton Nacra 20 "Wiggle Stick" #266 Nacra 18 Square #12
Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: Andrew] #113730
08/07/07 09:24 AM
08/07/07 09:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
I think using some minimum wind speed in the NOR is a selling point for a regatta. At my yacht club, ABYC, it is rare that a race sees less than 5mph on the course. Any decision to require a minimum wind speed would have to be determined based on the location though. Some lake venues may not have wind consistent enough to count on any wind much less determine a minimum. Most coastal areas could plan on some minimum.

At our area J's we waited two hours on the water for wind high enough to sail. There happened to be a high pressure system that eventually allowed racing to happen. No one on the water complained.

Dan

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: Dan_Delave] #113731
08/07/07 10:07 AM
08/07/07 10:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Sounds like there are a few things going on here. These comments are meant in a general sense, not trying to guess what was going on at the event in question. There are good guidelines but no perfect answers for all situations. And, we are all human.

Most of the time, the PRO either writes the SIs or at least approves them. Not always the case, but very typical. They should always be aware of whether or not there are wind restrictions.

Minimum wind speeds can be a hot topic for sure. To simplify, a quick look at the SIs for the Alter Cup finals in Melbourne, FL this year reveals no minimum wind speed, and as mentioned, sometimes minimum wind restrictions have to be waived due to local conditions. However, lots of us sail with minimum speeds per class rules, standard SIs used by our class, etc. so lots of people go into these things with paradigms.

If a minimum wind speed is to be used, it is extremely helpful to make it at the discretion of the RC and not subject to protest (theoretically, an RC can always abandon or file for redress to have the race tossed). Of course, it is in the PROís best interest to have a good running log of the wind, but that can only get you so far. If the wind was light all morning, and just started to pick up right before the scheduled start (but is expected to remain), should the race be postponed?

A PRO is expected to look out for the best interests of everyone sailing, and most of us really try to do this. Whether or not a minimum wind speed is used, look at this situation. If the wind is light, and it is obvious that some of the boats wonít make it to the line, a good PRO might think about an AP, at least once, to make sure everyone can play the game together. This requires knowing what is going on, such as, why couldnít those boats get back to the line? Was it their fault (late arrivals), or the clubís fault (an issue on the beach preventing everyone from launching)? Was there a long postponement, so boats were sailing around without knowing when the AP might drop? It is very likely that the PRO is working through this, and many of the sailors will be unaware of this.

So, it is sometimes challenging to balance what is perceived to be fair to all vs. favoritism, but my experience is that most sailors who have been around long enough at high-level events recognize good RC and the tools they use to try to have fair races. Itís the same reason you typically donít hear a lot of screaming at the front of the pack at a Nationals, you expect the other boats to be high-caliber and act accordingly.

Hereís a good example. If there is a straggler off the beach, a good PRO is on the radio with the Beach Captain, finding out why. If there is a scheduled start, and you donít want people dallying around for the rest of the week, you start the sequence as scheduled. If itís obvious that the straggler isnít going to make it, and it was the clubís fault (or you just want to be a nice guy on the first day), you have two immediate options: AP or general recall after the start (of course, you always need to weigh the effect on the entire fleet). This, along with reinforcement on the beach, should get people on the water sooner on each of the remaining days. Putting up the AP instead of starting the sequence sends the wrong (or no) message, typically sailors take that to mean that the RC isnít ready, so why should they be in a hurry the next day?

Again, not everything will be popular with everyone, but the key is to try to be fair to everyone. This is not always easy to do.

Racing is much easier when there is steady wind, so it should come as no surprise that running races in very light air isnít a picnic.

Mike Levesque

Last edited by brucat; 08/07/07 10:16 AM.
Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: brucat] #113732
08/07/07 03:08 PM
08/07/07 03:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
A
AquaTherapy Offline
stranger
AquaTherapy  Offline
stranger
A

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
Quote
Sounds like there are a few things going on here. These comments are meant in a general sense, not trying to guess what was going on at the event in question. There are good guidelines but no perfect answers for all situations.
Mike Levesque


I was also there, Mike. Yes, there certainly appeared to be more going on than a wind issue.

The wind was slow to build that day, so the start was postponed. Most of the boats went on out anyway to work off some nervous energy.

When the RC boat showed up and chase boats began setting marks, that was a sure sign things were about to get underway. Several minutes later, the PRO blew the horn a number of times to get everyone's attention. Shortly after that, the countdown for race #1 began.

The boats caught off the line were very experienced racers. They had sailed off AFTER the committee boat had appeared and marks were being set. They were not paying attention.

In addition, at least one of the errant crews had connections on the RC boat. It walked like a duck, it quacked like a duck....

PRO is a tough job. If he'd started this race without waiting, there'd almost certainly have been some whining from those late to the line. It was his call and he did what he thought was right. Doesn't mean I have to like it. And, yes, I will be happy to put up or shut up. I'll be glad to PRO next year.

Stephanie

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: AquaTherapy] #113733
08/13/07 07:09 AM
08/13/07 07:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
"In addition, at least one of the errant crews had connections on the RC boat. It walked like a duck, it quacked like a duck...."

Your assumptions are incorrect Stephanie. What you fail to post here was the fact that the race was postponed already due to light wind and the boats were not called off the beach yet but some (like myself) went out any way to see what the wind was doing up the course. In the mean time the markers were set and we were too far away to hear the horn blasts. If your so called connections on the committee boat were true, do you think they would have have started the sequence? Yes a few wives and one girlfriend was part of race committee but they know better than to be biased when it comes to running ANY race, let alone an Alter Cup Qualifier. The two reasons for the delay of start were: The Beach Captain could not be reached by radio to confirm that boats were called off the beach and at what time. Also, the wind dropped considerably.
Before you "decide" you will be a PRO, you should brush up on your knowledge of US Sailing Rules, I think you can find them on the website. Lee


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Good post! [Re: brucat] #113734
08/14/07 05:42 AM
08/14/07 05:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline
enthusiast
CMerrell  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
Good discussion, Mike.

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: TeamChums] #113735
08/14/07 04:14 PM
08/14/07 04:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
A
AquaTherapy Offline
stranger
AquaTherapy  Offline
stranger
A

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
Quote
"In addition, at least one of the errant crews had connections on the RC boat. It walked like a duck, it quacked like a duck...."

Your assumptions are incorrect Stephanie. What you fail to post here was the fact that the race was postponed already due to light wind and the boats were not called off the beach yet but some (like myself) went out any way to see what the wind was doing up the course. In the mean time the markers were set and we were too far away to hear the horn blasts. If your so called connections on the committee boat were true, do you think they would have have started the sequence? Yes a few wives and one girlfriend was part of race committee but they know better than to be biased when it comes to running ANY race, let alone an Alter Cup Qualifier. The two reasons for the delay of start were: The Beach Captain could not be reached by radio to confirm that boats were called off the beach and at what time. Also, the wind dropped considerably.
Before you "decide" you will be a PRO, you should brush up on your knowledge of US Sailing Rules, I think you can find them on the website. Lee


Yours are not the only hackles I seem to have raised with my "assumptions".

My apologies to all I've offended. It was certainly not my intention, though I'd be hard pressed to state just exactly what my intenions were at this point. I'll not try to justify my reasoning here because it was faulty at best; malicious at worst.

And, Lee, I don't need the website for the rules...I carry the book. It's right next to my PRO Manual <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Now, all I have to do is remember it all.

Stephanie

Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: AquaTherapy] #113736
08/14/07 08:58 PM
08/14/07 08:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Thanks for reeling this in Stephanie. I hope you do get more involved in running races, it's incredible what you can learn.

The US SAILING rules require certification for PROs at area qualifiers (ladder events). One of the best requirements of this program (although frustrating if you're in a hurry) is the expectation that you have on-water experience with multiple classes and types of boats and event formats. This sort of forces you to work with different PROs, OAs and judges. It's amazing what you can pick up at these different types of events.

I've been doing this for 10 years and have yet to see an RC where there aren't multiple people related to at least one sailor. I like to think of this as my extended family. I've found that the key is to be consistent to be fair to all.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 08/14/07 09:03 PM.
Re: Alter qualifier wind minimum? [Re: brucat] #113737
08/15/07 12:57 PM
08/15/07 12:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
A
AquaTherapy Offline
stranger
AquaTherapy  Offline
stranger
A

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
No problem, Mike. I have a tendency to go a bit overboard - sometimes it works; sometimes it don't <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I was literally on the road to a PRO certification workshop last year when a family emergency forced me to head back home. Hence the reason the PRO manual is in my possession. I have assisted race committee a few times and been on the RC boat (hell, I OWN the RC boat for our club LOL). I enjoyed it, but have yet to get enough racing (only two years so far) experience to seriously think I am ready to PRO. I just tossed that smart a** comment out there before someone got the chance to tell me if I was so unhappy with the outcome, I should PRO myself. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am lucky enough to race in an area dominated by great PRO's (both catamaran and keel boat experienced). when the time is right, I will have the opportunity to learn from some of the best.

Thanks for your "gentle" input, Mike. I appreciate it.

Stephanie
TCDYC


Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 53 guests, and 404 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mrarmyant, Iskariota, Rocko, Hobieharry, SailorSteve
7996 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
JeffS 1
Will_R 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,373
Posts266,968
Members7,996
Most Online1,650
Sep 10th, 2019
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1