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Americas Cup cats #114642
08/15/07 09:12 AM
08/15/07 09:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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In case some have not been keeping up there is more and more talk that the next americas cup racing could be done on very large cats (90 feet by some reports). Well I was thinking about what this might do to the catamaran world that we all sail in. If what is suppose to be the premiere sailing event changes to cats will more people move into the multihull world? I would think you would see more of the big sailors spending more time on multis. Anyone remeber if there was any increase in cat sailing from the 88 race with the Stars and Stripes cat?


Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
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Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: jody] #114643
08/15/07 11:26 AM
08/15/07 11:26 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Things have been strangely quiet on this front - if this happens, we will likely see racing on 90 foot versions of hydroptere. It's hard to say what is going to happen right now.


Jake Kohl
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: jody] #114644
08/15/07 12:43 PM
08/15/07 12:43 PM
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uk
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Even if it is sailed on cats, it will be so remote from what we all do that the general public will not see any comparison.
It could even back-fire in the way that cat sailing is done by a lot of guys that think they are more important than they are and that money/politics wins races!
The cat that did sail in the Americas cup was pretty much labeled a cheat and not a proper racing boat in many circles.

I was going to compare this to the VX40 racing that is going on in Europe but we are beginning to see cat sailors crossing over and even VX40s lining up against F18s on start lines. Much to the VX40 fleet's credit.

[I know, its not called VX40 now is it]


Paul

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Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: TEAMVMG] #114645
08/15/07 12:58 PM
08/15/07 12:58 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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I was going to compare this to the VX40 racing that is going on in Europe but we are beginning to see cat sailors crossing over and even VX40s lining up against F18s on start lines. Much to the VX40 fleet's credit.

[I know, its not called VX40 now is it]


Yes, At the Nessie race there is a 40 going up against all sorts !

Just wish I could be there to see it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: TEAMVMG] #114646
08/15/07 01:07 PM
08/15/07 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Even if it is sailed on cats, it will be so remote from what we all do that the general public will not see any comparison.
It could even back-fire in the way that cat sailing is done by a lot of guys that think they are more important than they are and that money/politics wins races!
The cat that did sail in the Americas cup was pretty much labeled a cheat and not a proper racing boat in many circles.

I was going to compare this to the VX40 racing that is going on in Europe but we are beginning to see cat sailors crossing over and even VX40s lining up against F18s on start lines. Much to the VX40 fleet's credit.

[I know, its not called VX40 now is it]


I don't know that I agree with that. The 1988 AC was viewed as unfair because it was. They were two uneven boats racing against each other and it was a wash but the negativity had very little to do with the fact that one of them was a catamaran. In this case (hopefully), we should see two similar breeds go up against each other and could see some pretty dramatic high-speed racing.


Jake Kohl
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: Jake] #114647
08/15/07 01:57 PM
08/15/07 01:57 PM
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Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Even if it is sailed on cats, it will be so remote from what we all do that the general public will not see any comparison.
It could even back-fire in the way that cat sailing is done by a lot of guys that think they are more important than they are and that money/politics wins races!
The cat that did sail in the Americas cup was pretty much labeled a cheat and not a proper racing boat in many circles.

I was going to compare this to the VX40 racing that is going on in Europe but we are beginning to see cat sailors crossing over and even VX40s lining up against F18s on start lines. Much to the VX40 fleet's credit.

[I know, its not called VX40 now is it]


I don't know that I agree with that. The 1988 AC was viewed as unfair because it was. They were two uneven boats racing against each other and it was a wash but the negativity had very little to do with the fact that one of them was a catamaran. In this case (hopefully), we should see two similar breeds go up against each other and could see some pretty dramatic high-speed racing.


Jake,

I've asked a fair few people about this (including US mates) and then general consensus was :

1, The US could not believe that Fay was right and could dictate what boat must be used
2, Once the US had realised this, it was too late to build a 90 footer to take on TNZ
3, So the US spent time on working out how they could pick holes in Fay's challenge to allow them to sail something else
4, They decided they could win in the courts if they sailed a Catamaran if they sailed in such a way that they did not win by too much.
5, They then proceeded to sandbag all around the course to try and pursuade the general public that the boats were of similar performance.

IMO, did the AC a massive amount of damage.

Most of the non sailing people simply said "oh, the one when the yanks cheated and used a Catamaran".

Sorry Jake, but the people I talked to really did think the US cheated.


I feel it was bad for the AC, but in order to win, and if I had been boxed into a corner by the NYYC I would have attempted to use a cat.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: scooby_simon] #114648
08/15/07 02:18 PM
08/15/07 02:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
Quote
Even if it is sailed on cats, it will be so remote from what we all do that the general public will not see any comparison.
It could even back-fire in the way that cat sailing is done by a lot of guys that think they are more important than they are and that money/politics wins races!
The cat that did sail in the Americas cup was pretty much labeled a cheat and not a proper racing boat in many circles.

I was going to compare this to the VX40 racing that is going on in Europe but we are beginning to see cat sailors crossing over and even VX40s lining up against F18s on start lines. Much to the VX40 fleet's credit.

[I know, its not called VX40 now is it]


I don't know that I agree with that. The 1988 AC was viewed as unfair because it was. They were two uneven boats racing against each other and it was a wash but the negativity had very little to do with the fact that one of them was a catamaran. In this case (hopefully), we should see two similar breeds go up against each other and could see some pretty dramatic high-speed racing.


Jake,

I've asked a fair few people about this (including US mates) and then general consensus was :

1, The US could not believe that Fay was right and could dictate what boat must be used
2, Once the US had realised this, it was too late to build a 90 footer to take on TNZ
3, So the US spent time on working out how they could pick holes in Fay's challenge to allow them to sail something else
4, They decided they could win in the courts if they sailed a Catamaran if they sailed in such a way that they did not win by too much.
5, They then proceeded to sandbag all around the course to try and pursuade the general public that the boats were of similar performance.

IMO, did the AC a massive amount of damage.

Most of the non sailing people simply said "oh, the one when the yanks cheated and used a Catamaran".

Sorry Jake, but the people I talked to really did think the US cheated.


I feel it was bad for the AC, but in order to win, and if I had been boxed into a corner by the NYYC I would have attempted to use a cat.


Yeah, this is the misconception I'm talking about. Fay purposely ambushed the US with the 90 footer by filing a challenge after a successful US defense with only a 10 months for the US to build a competing vessel. The purpose of this challenge was to catch Conner off guard.

The Deed of Gift that spells out how the America's cup operates specifies two different scenarios: 1) where the challenger and defender agree to the terms of the match and 2) where they do not agree. Under scenario 1, as long as both agree, anything goes. under 2) where they are unable to reach agreement about the challenge, the challenger specifies (and the Deed of Gift is specific here) Length, Width, Depth, and type of sail rig (sloop, etc.). The defender gets to pick the place and the challenge is to be sailed in no less than 10 months. It also goes on to specify that it will be a three race series and defines the courses. To my knowledge prior to that AC, there had never been an AC where this provision was used.

What Fay failed to realize is that the simple challenge specifications defined in the protocol almost dictate a multihull. While I agree that the whole thing was a mess, the race was legit. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but it was Fay who first tried to pull a "fast one" and win the cup on a technicality.


Jake Kohl
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: TEAMVMG] #114649
08/15/07 05:09 PM
08/15/07 05:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
I am a cat sailor but of coarse the Americas Cup cat was a cheat. Like arriving in your F18 to race a 470 when the guy asked you for a match race.
KZ1 was the fastest sloop to ever go round an Americas cup course.....a grand vision....and Conners turned up like a petulant brat who did not want to be whacked by better saliors, tech and vision than he and the NY Republicans club fossils could muster.
He called one of the very best designers of our time 'a loser" and "full of [censored]' on live TV and generally dragged sailing to a lower place than it had ever been.
Final outcome for cat sailors in general.....they are cheats....thanks Dennis.

Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: warbird] #114650
08/15/07 06:51 PM
08/15/07 06:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
I am a cat sailor but of coarse the Americas Cup cat was a cheat. Like arriving in your F18 to race a 470 when the guy asked you for a match race.
KZ1 was the fastest sloop to ever go round an Americas cup course.....a grand vision....and Conners turned up like a petulant brat who did not want to be whacked by better saliors, tech and vision than he and the NY Republicans club fossils could muster.
He called one of the very best designers of our time 'a loser" and "full of [censored]' on live TV and generally dragged sailing to a lower place than it had ever been.
Final outcome for cat sailors in general.....they are cheats....thanks Dennis.


I wholeheartedly agree that Conner's team acted very childishly and said a lot of stupid things - but that cat was just as much within the rules as NZ's attempt to ambush the cup by trying to keep the US from having time to develop a similar boat.


Jake Kohl
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: Jake] #114651
08/15/07 08:59 PM
08/15/07 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
Quote
I am a cat sailor but of coarse the Americas Cup cat was a cheat. Like arriving in your F18 to race a 470 when the guy asked you for a match race.
KZ1 was the fastest sloop to ever go round an Americas cup course.....a grand vision....and Conners turned up like a petulant brat who did not want to be whacked by better saliors, tech and vision than he and the NY Republicans club fossils could muster.
He called one of the very best designers of our time 'a loser" and "full of [censored]' on live TV and generally dragged sailing to a lower place than it had ever been.
Final outcome for cat sailors in general.....they are cheats....thanks Dennis.


I wholeheartedly agree that Conner's team acted very childishly and said a lot of stupid things - but that cat was just as much within the rules as NZ's attempt to ambush the cup by trying to keep the US from having time to develop a similar boat.


Correct, Conner stretched the rules to the limit fighting Fay, who also stretched the rules in his favour. This is quite common in our sport nowadays - but it wasn't then.

I believe that those events played an important role in the disapearance of fair play from the sailing scenario. Today it is confined to RRS # 1, which is not enforceable. A way of life and a philosphy can not be enforced, they are acquired learning and copying from the "grownups". Are the AC contenders grownups? Have they ever been?

The NYYC usually managed to hold an edge for the home team. They stretched the terms of each challenge slightly in their favour. This went on for decades, until the challengers also started to stretch the rules, fair play gradually being pushed aside.
The first boats with reversed transoms stretched the rules. The hard to get construction materials stretched the rules. The wings in Australia's keel stretched the rules. Fay's maxi-mono-in-ten-months stretched the rules to new limits and Conner pragmatically followed his game using all he could. Fair-play? Forget about it.

Today the AC is the battle of loopholes with tactics ran by expert sea-lawyers (the most dangerous aquatic predators). Every contender tries to grab an edge, no matter how unfair the match may become. Soon we will see AC boats with names inspired by their values: "Pragmatic", "Killer Clause", "Small Letters", "Secret Weapon", "Deadly Ambush", "Hidden Ace", "Concealed Spy", "Double Meaning", etc.

I don't care if the Cup is held in Optimists, but it must be fair.

That said, I would expect faster technical evolution and growing interest in multihulls if they race 90 x 90 multihulls in the AC. After the Fay-Conner match most multihull magazines started to sell twice as much.


Luiz
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: Luiz] #114652
08/16/07 12:46 AM
08/16/07 12:46 AM
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South Australia
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I remember the Fay/Conner cup challenge as if it was yesterday.
I’m not sure about everyone else “out there”, but all the people sailing that I knew at that time were quite outraged when Fay came up with his challenge “out of left field” which, as everyone, with exception of Kiwi’s, thought (and most probably correctly believed), was designed purely to catch the USA (as represented by Conner on the west coast and the NYYC) with their proverbial “pants down”.
Mind you, after the dust had settled a little, there was also the underlying thought that the USA (as represented to all outside the USA by that nasty NYYC) PROBABLY deserved it more than just a little.
The following fully expected court farce that followed, firstly with Conner contesting the Fay challenge and failing, then Conner being challenged in court by Fay for his announced defence with, of all things unholy in sailing, A CAT, also failing, there were a very large percentage of the “traditional” sailing community, world wide, who just “turned off” and literally ignored the whole event. They seemed to regard it as nothing more than a tatty little side show conducted be two petulant people who for all their assets and age were acting on the world stage like two small boys having a “push and shove” sort of fight in the play ground after school over a bag of lollies.
Even today if I mention the Fay/Conner AC challenge to several older blue water sailers who were definitely around and active in sailing back then, they look at me with sincerity in their demeanour and say “I have no recollection of any such thing”.
I think the worst things that came out of that whole event was firstly, a total loss of any sort of respect for Fay for initiating the whole farce and secondly, the esteem that most sailers held Conner in before the event, dropped practically to zero. DC before that challenge may not have been universally liked, but world wide he was greatly respected for the champion sailer that he undoubtedly was. After that he was seen more as a competent sailer who would use ANY means at his disposal to win, whether fair or foul.

Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: Darryl_Barrett] #114653
08/16/07 02:30 AM
08/16/07 02:30 AM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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I take these points Darryl and Faye is no favaourite of mine as he clearly proved himself to be an utter ratbag and fraud in many areas of his life, including taking citezenship in Ireland because it did not have an extradition treaty with NZ where he was wanted for serious charges.
However the challenge did force a rethink of the tired old 12 metre tubs they were sailing.
It looked to something really grand and huge, taking the cup back to the J boats and that I thought showed faith in the poetry of sailing and the mystique of the cup. I was not so interested in who would win but seeing something beautiful happening on the water.
I remember at the time thinking that if NYYC had stayed on target and just stalled for time they would have got there looked like real sportsmen, no matter what the outcome. They were not used to someone coming at them hard and fast and using their own tricks and I think they just lost it when they thought, yes, let's go cat with a wing, let's drag the cup down into the mud.
I remember thinking that Conner was crazy not to sit that one out, having lost and regained the cup he was guaranteed to be a folk hero forever.

Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: warbird] #114654
08/16/07 12:54 PM
08/16/07 12:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 186
Chattanooga, TN
jody Offline OP
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Chattanooga, TN
I think at the level that thoses guys sail at most people stretch the rules to the limit. Seems like that this us unfortunatly becoming norm in the top professional levels atheletes/competitors, espcially where money is involved. Look at all the doping stuff in baseball and bicycling. Guess the americas cup people just do it with court stuff and using the rules any which way they can. Not saying this is right, but if the rules are left open to some interpetation then i guess this is to be expected.
As to the new cup problems, I personally would love to have them come in and say, ok the rules are this wide and this long, this tall a mast, other wise go for it. I have always thought the cup should be at the front of all sailing, developing new stuff that will make its way down. This might make it an arms race, but the americas cup is where the big rich boys play, always has been and always will be. So let them go and let it all hang out.

Last edited by jody; 08/16/07 01:01 PM.

Jody Blade F16 724 Plays with Sharp Objects
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: jody] #114655
08/16/07 03:34 PM
08/16/07 03:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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So why not this option:

- The challenger BUILD two identical boats/sails/etc.

- The Defender gets to inspect and PICK WHICH BOAT (of the two) they will use, and select the venue/date/etc.


It works with kids and chocolate cake (one kid slices the pieces, the other kid gets first choice of the pieces.)

You should watch that sometime. The kids break out slide rules, micrometers, triple beam balance scales, etc. You will never find two more identical slices of cake. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Jay

Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: waterbug_wpb] #114656
08/16/07 03:47 PM
08/16/07 03:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Home is where the harness is.....
Nobody mentioned the more recent phenomenons in "stretching" the rules.

Older news, but "grooved" hulls, oozing polymers into the water in front of the boat.

Or most recently, TNZ's Hoola and the fact that they are all building masts to twist and mimic a rotating mast at the top. They're laying the fiber to allow for this and using the backstays to enhance it (since rotating masts are specifically prohibited). Don't forget a/b the new funny bow shapes that allow for LWL with less LOA.

Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: Will_R] #114657
08/16/07 05:35 PM
08/16/07 05:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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I do not know about 90² catamarans. Does anyone out there remember and have pictures of the 80² that raced years ago. They were a fiasco. I could see 90LOA and 45 on the beam. I am one of "those" though that does not want to see the AC raced on multihulls. Let that be for the iShares cup and the WSL. Just for once in the history of the cup, set a level playing field. Do it on Lasers, do it on development class boats, but do not bend or stretch the rules, the deed, the conditions to give you the absolute advantage. I also agree completely with Darryl Barret about faye's challenge and remember it well. Conner's response was appropriate for the situation.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: windswept] #114658
08/16/07 08:54 PM
08/16/07 08:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
I do not know about 90² catamarans. Does anyone out there remember and have pictures of the 80² that raced years ago. They were a fiasco. I could see 90LOA and 45 on the beam.


A 90 x 90 tri would beat a 90 ft cat. The cat's beam should be more like 50 - 60 ft.


Luiz
Re: Americas Cup cats [Re: waterbug_wpb] #114659
08/16/07 09:04 PM
08/16/07 09:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Quote
- The challenger BUILD two identical boats/sails/etc.

- The Defender gets to inspect and PICK WHICH BOAT (of the two) they will use, and select the venue/date/etc.


Make it better: two series, one in each boat. If still tied, the sum of deltas determines the winner.


Luiz

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