I run a little regatta at a lake that's also popular with windsurfers. This year after we were through racing, one of the windsurfers asked if we could give them a start next year.

I'd love to get the extra registrations, but I'm not really sure how the mechanics of having cats and sailboards racing at the same time would work out. I've never seen a sailboard race, but I'd be worried about the cats running them down in the starting area. I figure also that the sailboards would need a very different course than the cats, which means two sets of marks, which would be pretty confusing.

Anybody have any experiance with this sort of event?

What is wrong with running them over?

"What is wrong with running them over?"
You have to catch them first...

Regards,
Bob

We run racing where windsurfers sail against cats and mono's. It works OK, but we do havce some good racers.

My main concern would be that the windsurfers will not know the rules and if it's windy,it would be a nightmare !

Seems I have heard monohull sailors say the same thing about catamaran sailors.

I use to race against windsurfers in michigan. They can be a pain on the starting line cause to park they just drop their sails in the water and sit on the boards. Other than that they were fine. In a blow they will be kinda hard to catch, but they are a lot less irritating on the course then some of the slow monotubs out there. We just ran WL courses and they were fine with that, but I am sure they would love a reaching mark. Maybe start the cats first then the windsurfers, that way they are out of your way.

The first question is "what type of boards are they racing?"
This is pretty important. Assuming that they plan on course racing (as opposed to say, slalom) there are two main types of boards that are raced today- longboards and formula boards.

Longboards are about 12ft long, narrow, and have a centerboard. They are generally slow (in my experience) and will most definately require that you set a shorter course. Depending on the skill of the people racing, their ideal conditions will be anything up to about 20kts. The cats will probably beat them in every condition.

Formula boards are less than 9ft long and very wide. Their intention is to plane around the entire course (upwind and downwind). They require a minimum amount of wind to race (much less than 10kts and they will not be able to plane consistantly- which means they shouldn't be racing). If they have enough wind, they will be about as fast or faster than the cats (depending on sailor skill). The same courses could be used.

If both longboards and formula boards are going to race, it would probably require separate starts (and possibly courses) as they really don't work well on the same start line.

sm

Given that the Windsurfing Competition Rules are somewhat different than those for sailboats (see RRS Appendix B), before I asked if they knew the rules -- I would ask if we do.

But I don't believe rules aren't the issue here so much as sharing the water. I race in a club where some sailors think that other boats shouldn't be on the same course as their fleet. That kind of exclusionary thinking is very damaging to our sport. Most clubs I see are getting fewer and fewer boats racing. The last thing we need is to drive people away.

If sailboarders want to join you, be open; be friendly; be welcoming, and invite them along. Give it a try. Understand that the water belongs to them just as much as to you. I bet it will expand your horizons as well as theirs.

Regards,
Eric

Cool. Thanks for the input.

Maybe I'll run separate start lines on either side of the committee boat, one for cats and one for sailboards.

I'm surprised that windsurfers can be faster on a windward/leward course. I would have figured that they'd be a fair bit slower.

This lake is mostly used by sailboarders and kiteboarders, so we ought to do what we can to include them, if for no other reason then they are in tight with the park rangers. Also, many of them are ex-cat sailors so maybe we can seduce them back.

While I haven't been on a course with windsurfers yet, I do have some experience both racing and managing regattas with vastly different boats sharing the same course (cats vs. slower monos, etc.).

The first thing that I would recommend is that you arrange a meeting before next year's event with a representative of the windsurfers that intend to race. Ask what their preferences are instead of guessing. You might also consider asking them to supply a support boat, volunteers, etc. if you need the resources.

I wouldn't expect the starting line to be an issue. Start the windsurfers first, they'll be out of the way before the cats need to worry. If you start them last, it sounds like they'll be parked in the way of cats trying to start.

The other thing that you can do that is extremely helpful (especially for dinghy races with less experienced sailors) is to clearly identify a waiting area for the boats/boards between races. Put a diagram of this right in the SIs, and be sure to discuss it at the skippers meeting.

Hope this helps.

Mike

I forgot to address your concerns about multiple sets of marks. I would definitely recommend that, especially if you have spinnaker cats at this event.

At a minimum, 2 A marks. Preferably, 2 gates also.

This isn't as confusing as you would think, we've done it at Hobie NAs. Just make sure you have two different colored sets of marks (orange for the cats, yellow for the boards, etc.). Set up one gate upwind of the start/finish line, and the other a bit downwind. Again, clarify this in the SIs and discuss at the skippers meeting. Never run upwind and downwind finishes at the same time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The only downside to this is that unless you have LOTS of resources, you can forget about using change marks to fix any timing or wind direction issues.

Mike

I did a regatta last weekend. 1.5 mile W/L courses - one start. Fleet consisted of an A2, a Hobie 20, a Formula board with 9 meter sail, and 15 other various monos (Laser, Flying Scott, MC scow, M17 scow, Thistles, etc). In every race, it was A-cat first, wind surfer 2nd, and a battle among the rest for third (both on elapsed and handicap). The a-cat and windsurfer were pretty lonely with no traffic at any of the mark roundings - the a-cat would round, then the windsurfer about 5 mins later... The conditions were B3 and B4 all weekend.

Some of the old timers at our club would complain about visibility of the windsurfers (especially between races when they dropped their sails and sat down on the boards). Racing seemed to be fine except for the occasional encounter, that is not totally unheard of between "regular boats" either. I'd just make sure everyone know ahead of time what to expect. The idea of hashing it out beforehand sounds like a good idea.

BTW, the advice I gave is somewhat best-case (in terms of resources and space on the lake).

If your event is really small, you could probably get away with running one set of marks, start the boards first and give them a good head start before you start the sequences for the cats. Use longer distances to the weather mark and use courses with fewer laps to keep the separation and reduce issues at mark roundings.

Regardless of which way you go (in terms of marks, etc.) the main challenge is making sure no one gets hurt. If a board capsizes in the middle of the course, will the cats be able to see him in the water? Obviously, they should be paying attention, but it's worthy of discussion at the skippers meeting.

Hope this helps.

Mike

Yeah, safety is always the big concern. The wind blows awfull big on this lake - hence all the windsurfers. We had a Nacra 5.8 pitchpole this year without any trapeze-slingshot assist, which I would have said was nearly impossible. Experianced skipper and crew on flat water, just got hit by a psycho puff.

Definatley want to keep the windsurfers as far away from the cats as possible.

It'll be a small regatta, probably no more than 10 cats. I have no idea as of now how many windsurfers we can attract. Hopefully at least 10.

I think your best option is to run a trapezoid or modified trapezoid course for the boards, and standard W/L for the cats. Here's what you need to do:

Look in the RRS, Appendix L. Set your marks per the diagram for the Trapezoid Course. Use 4 marks as shown plus the two start/finish line marks. You have the option to add gates if you have enough marks, but for just 10 boats per fleet, that is very optional.

Start the boards first, have them race this course: S-1-2-3-2-3-F. Have one of your mark boats anchor as the finish boat. To make it easier (and need one less mark), omit the separate finish mark and anchor the mark boat at mark 3 and have them finish there: S-1-2-3-2-3(F). Be sure to modify the diagram and include it in the SIs.

Start the cats next, and have them run normal multihull W/L courses, using mark 1 as A and mark 4 as C. Be sure to include this in the SIs.

Make sure marks 2 and 3 are far enough away from marks 1 and 4 so the laylines don't overlap. By doing this, you set the boards off and they will be completely off the cat course and there will be an extremely small chance of issues on the water.

Let me know if this makes sense, it would be easier if I were sitting in front of you with some salt shakers and sugar packets...

Mike