Wouter,

You are clearly very emotionally attached to the F16, which I applaud. However maybe you should be more positive in promoting "your" class.

I really like the F16 and and good friends with Marcus and Phil, but I also see the other side of the coin. F18 has huge numbers and strong growth, now why is that? Answer this one and you will be on your way to success.

The F17 that Pete sailed was simply to see how the boat went with the Infusion mast, no secret attempt at F16...

You're right Macca. The F18's and Spitfires have taken off big time here in the UK attracting new blood from existing Cat fleets and also a fair few mono hull sailors. The A's are having a pretty good time too.
Why?
Better speed and more excitement for your £'s. However, these two particular Classes have been lucky due to the marketing resources available.
F16's were first produced at roughly the same time as the Spitfire and to date approx 200 have been sold but only really in the UK and France. Although, without their infrastructure F16's aren't that far behind at a guess world wide sales not including Taipans etc would be around the 140 number.
Marketing strategies were discussed at the AGM so we are aware of the problem of promoting the Class. I also feel this could be helped a lot more next year as I think we might see a couple of Vipers reaching UK shores. Once UK cat sailors are aware that the Viper is related to the Capricorn peoples current thinking about F16's will probably change and I bet a few sailors will jump at the chance of competing against the current F16 fleet in an attempt to win our bigger events/prizes.
We all know there is a good market for F16's it is just that to date we haven't had the big company names of Hobie, Nacra and AHPC to help spread the word. But we have a good crowd of like minded enthusiasts who to date have done a pretty good job.

Andrew,

Indeed I am emotionally attached to the F16 and indeed that sometimes makes me see thing in less clear terms.

I readily admit to that. Actually, my posts also tend to come across more harsh and disrespectful then I really intent to be. I'm just such an intense person in my arguing. I admit to that as well.

But your post did get me going I'm afraid. Truly nothing personal, I took issue with the statements made. This has almost nothing to do with how well the F18's are doing and I'm convinced you understand that yourself as well. We are not going after the same target of sailors or even trying to compete directly with the F18's.

I would venture that both the F18 and F16 classes has attained succes were others have failed. Both did so through largely different means and under very different conditions. Knowing the F18 experience will always be helpful, but not directly applicable to the F16's. An illustration may be that the builders that started the F18 succes back in 1993 have totally failed to replicated that success with their smaller boats c.q. singlehanders.

So I think your statement "now why is that? Answer this one and you will be on your way to success" is not correct. Also the existance and growth of the F16 now indicates our approach works as well.





I understand that, but that doesn't mean that actions by other people associated with the class aren't. Most remarkably, why would Nacra feel the need to have changed the Inter-17 design significantly 6 times in the last 9 years if it wasn't responding to pressures coming from the market place. But why haven't the F16's done so as well then ? Even if the classes didn't know anything about eachother and operate in total isolation then this would suggest the F16 analysis was right from the beginning onwards.

Interestingly enough it doesn't really matter how you turn it about. The end result is the same. It is that the other classes (except the F18's) must study the F16 concept and the road it took to succes rather then the other way around. The sidewalks are littered with failed attemps were the F16 succesfully continued, among these 18HT's, Jav-16's, Hobie Max's, SL16's, Swell Shadows, Cirrus Energy's are indeed also 4 different Inter-17 attempts (AU I-17, EU I-17, EU I-17XL and now the US I-17R as well as it is replaced by the US F17 and EU F17).

Maybe I'm arguing here that if Nacra and Hobie aren't copy-catting the F16's already then they would do well to start now ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

With all due respect to you personally and the companies named in this post.

Wouter

Just to clarify to every new reader of this forum what I mean exactly by the significantly different Inter-17 versions I'll present three comparisons here. All European boats measured by the independent Texel handicap organisation.

EU Inter 17 (1999-2003): mainsail 13.68 sq. mtr. by 8.15 mtr luff + 15 sq. mtr spi
EU Inter 17XL (2004): mainsail 15.25 sq. mtr by 8.05 mtr luff + 17 sq. mtr spi
Inter 17R (2004-2007): mainsail 16.44 sq. mtr. by 8.53 mtr luff + 19 sq. mtr spi

EU F17 (2007- ...): not measured yet

Basically the total upwind sail area grew by 20% and the spinnaker area by 27%, the mast grew taller as well, by 0,55 mtr (almost 2 feet).

Wouter

Hi there,



Since the platform weight, the ready to sail weight, the mast material and the mast cross section is fixed according to F18 rules, the mast is surely overdone for a singlehander. But I am sure it is a realy cheap solution to use the same mast. Even with aluminium, a single hander mast could be much lighter.
Maybe the boat is well balanced, but in 5 years the future will be: Carbon masts for most of the higher performance beach cats (it is lighter, safer and not necassarliy more expensive). Single hander will be between 75 - 100 kg and double hander 100 - 150 kg. I am sure, that under the competition from newcoming boats, Hobie and Nacra has no other choice than to adapt to this situation and F18 will also change their rules for CFRP masts and maybe lower weights. People who wants to buy a new boat (like me) will not buy a new boat which weights as much as a Dart 18 or H17. And there are so many new and interesting lightweight boats available, which will be also considered as light boats in 5 years.
I should maybe write an article, how to buy a new boat (maybe also in French <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />). Actually my strongest driver is weight, since weight makes you slow, weight makes you feel weak and old if you push your boat over the beach and finally weight is money (because a light weight boat need less sail area and 40kg of glass fibre, resin and its manufactoring has a price).
One last word, if you state you can righten the boat, please let us know, what is your weight and if you use any aids, because this is an other very important criterium to buy or not buy.

Cheers,

Smiths Cat

Of course Andrews answer takes precedence, but I may add some interesting viewpoints. I also have a piece of Capricorn mast section at home, the infusion mast is practically the same.


If we lengthen the current lightweight F16 mast to the same length as the US F17's (which may not be the same as the EU F17's when going on the dealor specs). Then you'll need about 8 kg additional righting weight.

If we made the 8.5 mtr long F16 mast from cutting down the Capricorn F18 mast then we'll need 7 kg additional righting weight.

If we were to use the full length capricorn F18 mast on the F16 then we would need 17 kg more righting weight.

Interestingly the difference in weight per meter between the current F16 superwing and the Cap F18 wingmast is only 200 grams per meter. Still, when taken over a full length mast then weight differences quickly add up to additional required righting moments.

To show this point more clearly just image that we add only 0.5 mtr of mast height to our F16's. At 1.65 kg / meter this comes out at only 0.825 kg added mast weight. Negligiable you think ? Not really ! As it is positioned at about 8.75 mtr away from the fullcrum this little section alone already adds over 7 kg additional required righting moment. That is significant difference !

We all have encountered the magnitude of this added weight when we had only a little water inside the mast.

Wouter

EU Inter 17 also comes with a 19sqm kite (All UK boats are 19sqm)

The boat is already racing in North America with the new SW Mast (Infusion), Peter is still working on the F17 main sail for Europe. According to the F17 newsletter, the boat will comply to the Nacra F17 Class Rules.
Lighthouse Regatta
4th & 5th place F17s were sailing with the new aluminum mast.

The nacra I-17 or Nacra F17 class rules can be found here :

http://www.nacraclass.com/northamerica/rules_F17.htm


Is the carbon mast abandonned all together ?

It is interesting that the class rules now only mention extrusions. Will the carbon mast even be outlawed ?

I also find this bit interesting :




To clearify what I mean I remove to unrelated parts.

... The shape and length may not be changed. ... I-17 daggerboards may be modified in length and
profile as per template provided by P. C., Inc.


So may the daggerboards by changed or not ?

If any Nacra F17 class official is reading this then this rule may benefit from some clearification.

Wouter

No chance of her going turtle? That's seems like a positive development… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[quote]

good thing with the Infusion mast is its light and has a lot of volume so there is no chance of the boat inverting.

Wouter,

Inter 17's (the old, non F17's) had longer plates.

The new F17's have shorter plates; the class rules allow the older boats to change the profile of their plates to the newer boats. Bit of retorfitting that's all.

The class rules allowing to cut down the plates predates the introduction of the F17 name by about 2 years.

Either way my statement of 6.5 years back has been proved correct. They were the wrong boards for a single hander.

Do you know if the I-17R version had the longer or shorter boards ?

It is hard to keep track of all the differences between the different versions of the nacra I-17's

Wouter

Wouter,

Things change.

I think (and I am not sure) that they cut a few inches off and re-profiled the leading edge slightly.

I don't have an Inter 17 any more so I'm just interested in a passing kind of way.

Does it radicaly change the world. Nope.

Does it really matter to us who do not sail the boat - Nope.

I also said years ago (when I had one) that the plates were too big, It's a good thing that thay have changed them I feel, do you disagree ?

People do research and learn stuff, this means they change stuff. That is how it is supposed to work.....

The point that started all this was that you can't simply used parts of an F18 on a singlehander and expect it to well behaved, even when the same parts are well designed for their F18 use.

Of course it is all right they design has been changed with respect to boards, but the made made earlier was about using the F18 alu mast section and rightability. I doesn't help much if one mistake is corrected while the same mistake is being made in relation to another part.

As such this part of the discussion arcs back to Andrews comment were he questioned how a well designed part for the Nacra F18 can be wrong for the Nacra F17.

By the way the reduction of the board area was 30 % of the total. One could call that "only a couple on inches", but that would not convey the right magnitude of the change.




and then most often they try to make the same mistake somewhere else, expecting different results.


But you are indeed right, this shouldn't matter to us F16 sailors at all. It is probably wise to drop this tangent.

Wouter

I'm going to email Rick to change this forum's name to the F17 Forum. I like the way F17 is ALWAYS brought up! Just need to get ALL your facts straight.
Why no boats in France? The answer is: Hmm... NACRA stronghold!
Keep up the good work!

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
PS; This is going to prove to be a most interesting winter season!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob,
Care to say something constructive on the discussion about centering the traveler on uni rigs in the "main sheet" thread?