Perhaps you are confusing morality and legality. The democratic system does not necessarily implies or yields a moral system.

When people want imoral things they vote for them - and get what they voted for. If the majority of the people wanted to live as racists, they would certainly vote for a racist government/law and would eventually get what they voted for. This is one excellent reason to admire the US people: they usually want moral things and vote accordingly.

An example from recent history: when the germans wanted nazis and racism, they voted for it and certainly got what they voted for. The whole thing was 100% legal - including racist laws, organized exterminations, etc., It certainly wasn't a moral system, though.

I believe that allowing people to vote directly each law through Internet, instead of having "people's representatives" vote on their behalf, just makes the democratic process faster and more direct. This does not necessarily endangers a nation's values.

In the german/nazi case, it is possible that some of the people who voted and empowered the nazis, would have voted against racist laws or (more likely) against legal extermination - if they could vote each law through Internet. I guess online voting would have made it possible to change things earlier and avoid lots of suffering.

Naturally it is safer to start learning and adjusting for the faster change pace of such system by means of testing a direct online vote system in less sensitive areas - like worldwide sailing management! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Could we please focus on the issue at hand on this thread.

pls sign the petition if you want to protect the future of catamaran sailng at the highest level. WE NEED YOUR HELP !!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/

I agree. This is not a political thread, it is a thread to get catamaran sailors to show their support for the future of multihull sailing at the peak of competitiveness. Sign the petition, voice your concerns to both your national and international governing bodies and be heard.

I signed the petition. Note that a MNA can petition anything that suits its interests, but it is a long way to actually get it.

They are certainly asking for something that the French (or whoever) don't want, only to negotiate dropping the whole thing in exchange for something else they want. It is the political equivalent of kidnapping or blackmail - and I HATE it.

This is the type of thing that the UK does (a lot) to stay on top of ISAF's rankings and Olympic events. It is hardly a surprise that they never won the only race with rules partially made elsewhere: The America's Cup. Don't be surprised if one day the UK presents a submission requesting that ISAF decides everything related to the AC. Match Racing rules were created as a first step in this direction.

We want Direct Democracy NOW! Only a Direct Online Voting System can save our souls! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is a link to voice your opion about cats in 2012. There is an exsisting thread that is the response from the RYA.
http://www.the2012londonolympics.com/?
This is the thread link. Sign up and put you say in. I am TornadoSail2012 on the thread.

http://www.the2012londonolympics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8959

Thanks for the link Tom.

I'm curious what people think about how important youth cat sailing is to the health of competitive adult cat sailing. My completely subjective impression, unburdened by any real data, is that many cat sailors joined the sport from monohull sailing well after leaving their youth.

Mark, I think Youth Multihull Events are very important to the growth of Multihull sailing. Check the following link http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/

As example, look at some of the past winners:
Michael Slau, now, one of the top Hobie 16 sailors in all events
Sarah Newberry, Tornado sailor, moving up in the ranks
Eric Raybon,USA rep to the ISAF Worlds this year, and rising Hobie 16 and 17 racer, just to name a few.

Youth Events and Championships ARE the future of Multihull sailing.

Caleb Tarleton
US SAILING Multihull Youth Champ. Comm.

Just for info.
RYA statement on future Olympic and Youth multihull classes
<<http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=138587>>

Looking over some of the data, for example that 29-er fully rigged with spi and all costs ONLY 8750 Euro's, I must say that the cat sailors and their organisations are not playing their game right. Afterall the SL16 (youth boat for cats) costs 13.000 Euro's. I can understand where RYS is coming from when the first 29-er worlds is said to have had 65 crews participating, with 100 crews now. The cat youth classes don't pull that much participation, they're not even close.

This brings us back to the problem of youth sailors in cat classes. Although this problem is compounded by the fact that the 29-er is not really a youth class (as the SL16 is) even though the RYA still sees it that way. They could also have quoted the H16 worlds numbers of over 250 crew participating, among which undoutable a large number of very young people.

They feel no real youth path towards Olympic multihulls (i.e. the Tornado) exists and they are arguable right about that. A Hobie 16 simply does not compare in any way to the olympic Tornado. Actually a crew coming of the 29-er is not expected to find more difficulty in mastering a Tornado then a youth team coming of the Hobie 16. That is not far of the truth.

So how to solve this ?

I have my personal opinions, which do revolve around getting them on well looking and performing cats early on like when they are 12. But what do others think and more important how do we actually get something implemented in real life ! We can argue till we are blue in the face that cats must become alot cheaper then they are now but how do we actually achieve that ?

Wouter

I'll say this as simply as possible: It's not about the boats.

If you don't believe me, the numbers don't lie. I've done some RC work this summer in the mono world (Newport, RI and Narragansett Bay), and am completely blown away by the Opti program (Club 420s numbers are also impressive).

There were 90 boats at a weekend regatta in June (not a championship).

There were over 450 boats entered at one regional championship regatta.

There were 128 at another regional regatta.

A new Opti costs about $3000, in the ballpark of a Hobie Wave. Neither of these boats is a "performance" class (for its respective number of hulls), but the Opti program crushes any youth cat program, period.

I'm not going to guess what the reasons are, but the numbers are tough to deny.

Mike

So why do the opti's have such large attendence and the waves don't ?

Wouter

Vanguard Opti $2,600
nice roof rack $300
Less than $3K

Hobie Wave $4,400
nice roof r...oops! forgot it weighs 245
trailer and beach wheels $1,100
Can't just leave it over here by the shed, we have to pay storage???

F16/A class are in the same ballpark as opti/Wave<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
F12 discussion?

That seems to be the million dollar question, wish I had the answer.

I think there are a lot of elements that add up to this result, I don't think it's a simple equation at all. Otherwise, we could just buy a trailer full of Waves, show up at the yacht clubs, and win over hearts and minds. Wait, didn't we try that?

Mike

I said "about $3000." There are other Opti manufacturers that charge more. My Wave price appears to be outdated. A Wave can definitely can be cartopped. At the events I've been to, there are several multi-Opti trailers, so I don't think that's critical anyway.



Well, you seem to have the mother of all tangents there. I was just trying to compare our most popular, least expensive boat to theirs. I'm not suggesting a Wave is remotely representative of how a Tornado sails, nor is an Opti representative of an A-Cup boat.

Read my message again. All I'm saying is that it probably wouldn't matter if we had a $1000 spinnaker-rigged cat. The Optis have an extremely impressive program, and that feeds the rest for monohulls.

Mike

I understand, but how did the 29-ers get there ?

In 2000 the 29-er was a totally new design without any class following.

Now it has passed many classes in numbers of participants and youths sailing it, according to RYA.

How is that the 29-er can achieve that were other boats like the Wave didn't. I think the Wave was launched around the same time and marketed by arguably a much larger company called Hobie cat.

I'm interested to find out why you think that is if the boat itself has nothing to do with it ?

Wouter

I said I don't want to guess, and I wish I knew the answer.

It seems too simple just to say it's because of the yacht clubs, but that might just be it. I don't honestly know how Optis are promoted to kids. It seems that they are exposed to them early (older siblings, mom/dad at the club for something else, etc.) and they see 50+ boats with kids sailing them, maybe that's enough incentive???

Beyond Optis, there are other boats to take a kid through high school, college and beyond. There are established programs, and I am unaware of ANY college that races cats. So between what they are seeing at the clubs, what they have to grow into (mom/dad influece?), what their friends are doing, etc. where is the incentive to sail a cat (other than to go fast).

So again, the boat doesn't matter. The Opti is a very, very slow tank (OK, more of a box). But, put a whole bunch of them on a starting line, and somehow, they're fun!?!?

Although, back in the 80s, there were routinely 200+ boats at weekend Hobie regattas in the US. Granted, those were primarily for adults. Obviously, we let the genie out of the bottle, and then it ran away. We're clearly not doing a very good job of bringing in new sailors. Lots of people are trying, it's just not working like it did in the "heyday." The factory says they're selling more Hobie sailing boats than ever, but the models they are currently selling just aren't making into the existing regatta program.

As for 29er vs. Wave, I don't know if this was company-wide, or if the dealers will admit to it, but I know for a fact that they go out of their way to promote Waves as being used for casual-sailing (non-racing) only. They typically don't even tell these sailors about the local Hobie fleets, which they view as only being for the "serious racers."

The class association didn't help this in the beginning, as Waves were not accepted as a racing class for many years. While there are now class rules published by IHCA, in the US, the vast majority of Wave racing is done under a separate umbrella. Rick and Mary can fill you in on more of that (if you haven't seen it here already)...

Mike

Maybe the boxiness and slowness of the Optimist is its selling point - it looks safe to the parents and it's unlikely to scare the kids off the water before they get hooked. And they get to do what all the other kids are doing.

As Wouter indicated, I think the 29er may be a better model for us to understand. In terms of target market, what is the appropriate modern cat design to compare it with? The SL16?

This is how Hobie presents the Wave in their web:

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/images/wave/gallery_02_lr.jpg

And this is how the 29er is presented at 29er.org:

http://mylatest.info/29er/images/argb2.jpg

Which one would you pick being a kid? They are just not compareable.

Here's my opinion:

The 49er is the "extreme" olimpic monohull. Kids like extreme sports. When a kid is sailing or leaving the Optimist, he is still too light and weak to sail the 49er. Convincing those kids that the 29er is the coolest available alternative is not difficult: after all, both look the same.

A similar situation once existed between the Optimist - 420 - 470.

The mulihull equivalent to the 29er would be a scaled down Tornado. The F16 or F14 could certainly be marketed as mini-Tornados but we would still miss the multihull equivalent to an Optimist.

I see it as a small one design cat powered by a simple rig, able to beat an Optimist in some key features:

-safety
-simplicity
-rigging time
-beauty
-price (if possible) and
-performance ( but not too fast, just enough to comfortably beat an Optimist. Parents prefer toys that keep kids within a manageable distance.)

An F12 could be the answer.

Lastly, both the Opti and the 29er are one designs. This gives a perception of "lower price and lower maintenance cost to remain competitive and get a reasonable resale value". We know that in the long run it isn't true, but the key for sales is "perception".

... whereas the RYA currently see the Hobie 16 as the youth cat. And the ISAF evidently have endorsed the SL16 (which whatever else you might think about it probably validates the view that the H16 is not the best youth choice).




Could the Hobie Dragoon fit the bill? How is this design faring in Europe? The RYA evidently use this for their Junior Catamaran Program, although they cite statistics for its (lack of) adoption to justify their stance on classes for the youth World's.