I am learning that in windy conditions the blade needs to be kept flat to handle the spin power. This started me thinking that maybe in the upper teens and above is there gonna be that much difference in speed with the spin up vs not up and doing the wild thing? I know this sounds dumb and maybe it is but if the boat is tripping over the bows in the blow is the speed difference worth the higher risk of ending up with the mast facing the wrong way?
Wouter what did it look like at the GC? I think I heard Hans did not launch the chute sometimes, how was his speed compared to the spin boats?

thanks

That is a perfectly valid tactic depending on skill, experience and conditions.

At my local club, I would definitely consider leaving the kite off downwind in the real blows, atleast to avoid some of the really nasty chop that sometimes pops up.

I always pull the spinnaker, but that is mostly because my boat tends to be more difficult to handle without a spinnaker in a blow.

However, I do believe there are conditions where it is best to race an F16 without a spi on the downwind legs.

This transition may be located at different conditions for different boats and different sailors.

Hans tends to decide to go without a spinnaker early, while I only do so at a very late stage.

Speed difference, the spinnaker is always faster downwind as long as you can handle it. The latter mostly means, not capsizing the boat. Of course no boat is as slow as the one that is upside down ! If you have to flog the spinnaker often (very large and violant shifts) then maybe it is not faster either.

At the GC the problems with the spinnaker were two fold. First the seastate. Hoisting and dropping the spinnaker when 1-up was very challenging because of the combination of large and fast waves (1.5 to 2 meter tall, length of a man) and strong winds. Basically you had only seconds to get it up and down before the waves would pick up your sterns, swing the boat around and put your mainsail perpendicular to the strong winds. This is the way I flipped it on monday.

On tuesday they was were less. Here I flipped the boat (and righted it unaided) 5 times in 2 races. 3 times under spinnaker on the same leg. The reason for this is relatively simple. Although I was physically strong, I'm the only one who managed to flip so many times and right the boat unaided to continue racing, I was mentally out of sinc. My converted Taipan is the most difficult to sail in strong gusty winds with large waves. I tend to accellerate coming off the wave and bury my bows deep in the next one. When that happens the boat experiences alot of weatherhelm and my AHPC rudders stall to easily leading often to a broach. When I'm sharp mentally then I'm able to make the right corrections early on in the proces and survive. On Tuesday I wasn't and after righting my boat several times I was losing more and more of my concentration and tipping it in more often as a result. with the spinnaker, the boat has slight lee helm and loads up the rudders much less when the bows burry. This is one reason why I always pull a spinnaker for downwind work no matter what the conditions are. The rudders made by Hans are much better and hardly ever stall, also the Blade hulls have much less resistance against baring off even when the bows burry.

I'm absolutely convinced that T-foil rudders and even slightly longer rudders (or a better profile) will work wonders on my boat. I haven't got the money to pay for these though.

Also, there is another thing to consider. In order to get to higher speeds under a spinnaker you need to be able to overtake the waves. The spinnaker can help you get up to speed to stay with a wave and possible provide extra power to stay with one. However, if the winds are strong enough to allow you to catch a wave under mainsail alone then the spinnaker boat is hardly pressed to make much time on the boat without a spinnaker. It is much harder to overtake a wave then to ride one all the way to the gate. You are still faster if you can and often you can but against what risk of capsizing ?

On Saterday it was clear how much faster a spinnaker can be, especially 1-up. The winds were slightly less and the waves were a little shorter. Now with the spinnaker you could overtake wave after wave after wave will none spinnaker boats stayed locked in. Even F18's with a relatively heavy crew will hard pressed to this end at the end of the race when the winds fell a little. I was able to keep doing this all the way to the finish. On the last half of the leg I think I put some 10 minutes on the John and Paul Alani who were right along side me when we rounded the last mark.

So it can go both waves ehhh ways.

Wouter

If you're 2-up, IMO, you would be better to pull the spin unless really in survival mode.

I was 1-up Saturday, no spin, doing well with plenty of control. Then I decided to "heat it up". It was a bad decision.

pete how was your speed without the spin compared to other boats?

A little less speed, but better vmg I'm sure. The spin boats weren't sailing nearly as deep as they could have.

The smart thing (for me) would have been to sail as deeply as possible.

I would really like to hear Chris Saters' view. considering it was his first time on the boat, I thought his performance was exceptional, and he didn't even have the spin rigged!

Anyone know if Chris post here? Olie talked to him last night on the phone (we tracked him down after hearing about his getting the boat) and there is a rumor that a big name sailor might be using his boat for an upcoming regatta.

It was pretty common knowledge that Nigel Pitt is interested in sailing the boat. I have no idea if he intends to race it.

AS of last night he told us he was gonna actually race it in the alter cup qualifier. Olie, Joanna and I had no idea until chris told us, guess we are the last to know.

You hear all kinds of things. . .! Good luck to you.

Since, the forcast was 18kn+, and my first time on boat, I knew i would be not have the singlehanded skills to handle the spin without going swimming.

I was nicely supprised with the speed of boat up and downwind compared to F18s & N20s.

Upwind, I had the traveller out 6", to be conservative(windy) and did not try to point like most uni's do above the F18 & N20, and to my supprise could match their speed upwind, once I got clear air. I had poor accel off the line (depowered for sailing conditions, not starting). My best was around 4th to the first weather mark in the third/last race Saturday among N20, F18, F16.
Quad tacking the weather mark w/o crew to blame is time consuming
I think double handed changing gears would be quicker than single handed, it is easier to politely ask the crew...


Downwind, I tried to wild thing in the lulls, but had to come up way to high to make it practical. I would release the M.rotation, but not the outhaul. I did NOT release the outhaul for downwind because the plastic clam cleat was difficult to singlehandedly engage without slipping. The downhaul was not singlehanded friendly either. It would have helped in the lulls, but it was windy enough that it did not hurt to much.
If I bore off before the height of the puff, I think the boat would start planning on the river, and continue to accell without any tendency to pitch. If I was late to bear off in the puff, the bow would go down under but would easily come back up with little loss of speed, main sheeted in/no change.
In the puffs I could almost match the spin's, but in the lulls they would pull away.

The acceleration and quick rudder responsiveness made the light F16 a real joy to sail compared to a 3-4 hundred pounder.

After arriving at the park am Saturday, it did not take N.P. very long to ask if he could borrow it for the Acup, so it will be interesting to see how he does with the 1st gen F16 compared to the 2nd. Driving home Sunday I guess the net let the cat was out of the bag, and got a call from Ollie, news travels fast.

This is soooo important, also when driving a spinnaker. Crews who don't learn this will have troubles, crews that do learn it will do very well.

To me it feels like I have to start baring off before the gust hits, then increase rate of baring off during the gust while starting to head-up before the gust had passed and increase the rate of heading up at the end of the guts. Basically I need to stay ahead of everything the gust does and recognized very early on when a gust is going to hit and or when a second gusts is on top of the first one.

I'm not even doing it concensiously anymore, it is just a feeling. A feeling that I need to start barring off NOW ! And then halve a second later I can feel the gust blowing across my face. There is something in the way my boat moves (or something like that) on which I know what is coming.

I find this feeling very intoxicating. It is like : "Grasshopper, don't fight by thinking, but by being one with it."

It is exactly like that.

Wouter

I also believe you have to put the kite always up (when sailing 2-up) no matter how much wind or waves there are.

On the GC Hans decided to keep the kite in because it was really difficult to hoist it alone, as Wouter said. I on the other hand hoisted the kite and we could sail deeper and faster than Hans.

I also have difficulties to keep the bows up in heavy seas, combined with heavy winds. My girlfriend still has to learn how to trap in those kind of conditions and I hope that is the solution to get the Blade going in those circumstances...

Ofcourse, you always have to keep in mind you're sailing a 16 foot instead of an 18. In heavy downwind legs, you notice the difference...

Gill

I think I know what you mean. If the wind were good enough to bring up the chop in an east west orientation then I would have problems. Didn't take anything to bury the bows with the spin up. This was sitting all the way at the back (and leaning back over the rear beam) solo and keeping theboat very flat. Heating it up like that didn't help much in that chop because you would bury the bows more. However, out on the wire just behind/at the rear beam I could keep the bows up. Obviously this is interesting in good chop but the boat clearly behaves better that way solo. IMO

When I was still sailing 2-up I found that putting the crew on the trapeze and have her standing behind here skipper (me) would make a noticeable difference. I appeared to me that just having the crew only 0.5 mtr further back was enough to improve the ride.

While there is arguable a difference between 18 and 16 foot hulls I also notice that alot of F18 crews and even Tornado (20 foot) crews tend to adopt the same posture when sailing under spinnaker.

Wouter

I personally prefer to go out. This enables me to see the incoming puffs and lulls. I can also see the sail trim much better from out on the wire.

Tell her that you don't get shroud/dagger board bruises if the helm buries the bows if you trap! If you do go in, you fly in, not hitting anything, and land gently in the water in front of the boat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sailing down wind in the big stuff IS a different game 1 up vs 2 up.

2 up is get the crew on the wire, locked in the toe strap if you have one and sail it like you stole it. I’ve never (yet) sailed my boat 2 up, but this is 100% the fast way in the Hurricane 5.9.

The benefits are that the lard is further back, the extra RM means you can drive it harder and if you wash the sails the crew lads forward and downwind ready to catch the boat as it drifts past.

Single handed it is more of a risk/return calculation.

Is there too much wind to actually manage to say somewhat in control while on the wire out the back ?

If so, sit in and take a bit of a speed and angle hit, but you don’t get washed off, flung around the front of the kite when you hit waves or spat out the back in the big gusts.

I’ll also sit in if it is very busy as I cannot crash gybe from the wire. Ditto if you re sailing short courses as by the time you are out, it’s time to come back in.


There is also a point when it's time to get the windward hull back in the wet stuff to add stability.

Try sailing without spin to get a feel for the boat and its pitching moment. Then under spin, you will have much more confidence.

At least that worked for me. (Sorry Scooby, I was actually responding to Jody.)

PTP, when you were having these problems with the bows going under, where were your daggerboards? Try pulling them at least half way up and see if the bows don't dive so much. It worked for me.