One thing I have against the F 16 class is the lack of crew weights. As I understand there are none. Is it fare if I go sailing with my wife and we weigh 300 lbs and another sailor is sailing with his kid and they weigh 200 lbs. If we both had equal skills I would never be able to keep up carrying an extra 100 lbs. That would keep me from buying an F16. Why does the F16 class not have a proven weight system like the F18 ? Just my thoughts.

Dave good question. I have no idea myself. But on the flip side if its honking 20+kts who will be advantaged? The 300lbs crew or the lighter 200lbs crew?

It is all about a trade off. Doesnt the F18 class rules have specifics regarding corrector weights and sail plans as well?

I prefer the simplicity of the f16 rules regarding this issue.

from what i have seen the 200lbs crew will be at an advantage no matter how windy it is.The lighter crew may be a little slower up wind but down wind they have the advantage.(lower same speed).

"the 200lbs crew will be at an advantage no matter how windy it is"

Maybe in a computer model, but my 7 yr old son and I (which together we make 200 pounds) would lose too much in sail handling/strength for sheeting/etc. and would get blown away by a team of two mature humanoids when the wind starts blowing.

EDIT: included the quote from prior post

Simple; You buy a mainsail cut fuller and so more power.

There is an effective minimum weight (about 60kg ish) single handed as you must be able to right the boat single handed.

at 300lbs (136 kg) I'd say you would have a real good all up weight to drive the boat hard. Yes a boat sailing 2up 200lbs (90kg) would be quicker in the light stuff, but I'd expect them to struggle in the big stuff.

Robi

The f18 does have sail plan and crew weight rules which equal the boats and crew according to the crew weights. The F16 does not have that. Are you saying that the F16 is going to sail 10 regattas-5 light air and 5 heavy air to make it fair for both crews? If you had 10 heavy air regattas and no light air regattas the light crews would soon say I don't have a chance to win why even go. Same thing if you had light air regattas with the heavy teams.

The F16 just does not have a level playing field as far as crew weights go, in my opinion.

I think I can answer this question satisfactory. F16 actually had a weight equalizing system like the F18's in the very beginning, but it was disgarded very quickly.

But first things first. At 300 lbs = (136 kg) you'll be very hard pressed to be disadvantaged at all. That weight is right smack in the middle of the competitive 2-up weight range, which is surprisingly wide for the F16's (250 lbs - 340 lbs = 115-155 kg).

If you would sail against a 200 lbs 2-up crew = 91 kg you'll find that it is rather they who are disadvantaged.

Of course we must note that competitiveness is defined as "averaged over the while spectrum of the sailing conditions".

But even without that limitation you'll find that being heavy, light or at optimal weight are not very big influences in overall performance irrespectibally of the sailing conditions. One way we have found this out is by having 1-up crews racing against 2-up crews. Surely a big strong guy at 200lbs/90 kg and singlehanding will blow the doors of any 330 lbs/150 kg 2 male crew in light winds, right ? Well, not really. Over a wide range of conditions it was found that performance remained very close together even with this 130 lbs crew weight difference.

The Taipan class was the only catamaran class who did an thorough statistical weight-to-performance analysis, you can read the results here : http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_optimal_crew_weight_analysis.html


These results together with the experience that the weight equalisation in the F18 class wasn't really working out as intended lead to abandonning of any weight equalisation system in the F16 class. With respect to F18's, all racing crews just upgrade to the big sail plan anyway, because the small sail plan hardly sees any development and because the smaller sized jib and spinnaker simply don't interact well enough with the mainsail to get proper drive. And of course the large mainsail and the same tall mast is making truly lightweight crews overpowered too soon anyway. Lightweight crews don't like the F18 small rig at all in EU. Without a clear benefit the F16 class felt it was not worth the hassle. In retrospective I think this to be one of the better judgements made by the F16 class. It appears that the differences in the F18 class between the small and big rig aren't that much less then you expect to find when both heavy and light crews used the same rig. Although which crew is favoured is exchanged. Not much won, but alot of complexity added to the class.


Now there was also another perspective into this situation. Models of the F16 boat showed that the differences in drag between a light crew and heavy crew weren't impressive at all. It was only a couple of %. When this drag was compared to a given sail drive (assuming both crews used identical rigs) then the performance difference over a race course was still not adding up to more then 1 min per hour racing. We felt that this was far to little inequality to necessasitate any elaborate equalizing systems. Especially not when differences in boat design, age, sails and maintainance would be at least of the same magnitude or a little more. And of course both are dwarfed by the magnitude of the differences due to crew skills.

Jim Boyer and Greg Goodall actually campaigned against a weight equalizing system in the beginning of the F16 class as they felt that their Taipan experience had shown them that sailing "light" on a Taipan was not advantagious. I asked Daniel van Kerckhof about this and he felt the same.

We must not forget that the F16's are pretty power-up boats. The boat itself weigthing next to nothing and it is actually the crew that is keeping her down by their weight alone.

Of course in light winds, there is no need to to keep her down, but here aerodynamics become the most dominant limiting factor. And these are largely unaffected by the crew weight on the boat. Even a heavy crew can lift the luff hull early by putting the crew on the leeward hull. And a 30 kg difference on an overall weight of 245 kg is only 14 %. Difference in wetted surface area will be about 5 to 6 % and the difference in performance when using identical rigs will be 2.5 % or (again) a good 1 minute per hour of racing.

Having said this, lighter crews will sail with flatter sails even in light winds as they can not hold down fuller sails in big wind and they are only allowed one set of sails per event. This latter rule basically forces them to sail with a sail that is a good average for them as the heavier crews do. Surprisingly enough all these factor together interact in such a way that they class is surprisingly well equalized.

I know that gut feelings say otherwise, but this is still the situation as shown in real life and by statistics. I for one am a supporter of the adagio ;"if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

As things stand there doesn't seem to be anything wrong, at least not in a significant magnitude to justify adding complexity and cost to the class.

It would even go one further. I'm convinced that at this time the F16 class is more equalized over a larger range of crew weights then say a One-Design class like the Hobie 16's or even the Inter-20's. This is the result of the modern hull shapes, the unregulated sails and the fact that the crew is a much larger part of the overall weight. Also the F16's are much more sensitive boats which shifts the onus even more towards differences in sailing skills and away from basic boat speed.

But indeed Dave, the best way to find it out whether this is all true is to just borrow a Blade for a few races and just give it a try. I'll garantee you that you'll be smiling all the way at 300 lbs.

Wouter

David,
We don't have a min crew weight because it is just not as important with the hull shapes we are using. The more conventional V shaped hulls take a significant increase in wetted surface when you add weight but with the bouyancy so low in the F16 hulls the increase in wetted surface with increase in crew weight is significantly reduced.
Add this to getting your sails cut for your crew weight and the use of the spinnaker off the breese which is a big loss traditionally for heavy crews. When you also consider that you have to be able to right your boat, a min crew weight is not needed.


Regards,
Phill

We had Matt Mc and Bart sailing at 125 kg = 275 lbs at the F16 Global challenge in pretty darn rought conditions. Think 18 knots minimal windspeed with gusts to 25 knots and confused seas with a 2 meter swell and a sizeably windchop on top of that.



They did extremely well among all the other 2-up crews that were indeed heavier in combined crew weight. Lots of 1st and 2nd's.

There are enough examples of the reverse being true as well 1.e. heavies doing well in light stuff.

I understand that the gut says otherwise but it really wouldn't be the first time that the guts are wrong. An example, 6 years ago not a soul in the USA believed that a 16 foot catamaran design with a small sail plan could even dream of being near to a fully blown F18 in racing. Now guys like Nigel Pitt and Olli Jason are taking test rides on the Blade and scoring 1st in light air on their first time out.

Sometimes things are simply not the way they appear to be.

Wouter

Wouter

I don't question the speed of the Blade. In under 9 knots I think it is faster than the F18 and I 20. Until we can double trap on the F18 the Blade can sail as fast or faster. Nigel switched boats with Oli in the last race in the Alter cup just to show that the blade can beat the I20 and F18 boat for boat. Oli finished 5th on Nigels infusion after wining all races except 2, one when he got hung up on the rc boat anchor line and once when he went to the wrong side of the course and being last to A mark. He still ended up 3rd in those 2 races.

From my reports of the Alter cup sailing on blades the real heavy teams did not have as good boat speed as the lighter teams (340 lbs). There was plenty of wind too.

If I got one I would be sailing with my wife 300lbs and with my other team mate 330lbs and by myself 175lbs. Would I need different main sails to be competitive?

It amazes me that an F18 sailor, who already races with minimum crew weights in that class, is considering an alternative class, but wants to drag rules across from their existing class! WHY!? You are already in the class that has what you consider the most important rule! Why do you need to change the rules of another class closer to the class you are already in?

The only thing I can think of is that you don't like the class you are already in! So two questions need to be asked; why do you want to change our class into the class you don't like; and why don't you like the existing class? It can't be because you hate the minimum crew weight rule you already have because you want that to come over to your new ride.

And yes, 135kg on an F16 will be perfect for most conditions whereas 90kg 2-up crew will be pressed in a breeze (not to mention a bit hungry). Don't forget, this is sailing, it is heavily influenced by nature hence unfair. That's one thing that makes sailing a great past time, it is always a challenge for perfection, and when you achieve close to perfection, it feels amazing! Stop trying to level the playing field, it can never be achieved, tall basketball players will always have a natural advantage over short ones.

David,
Don't forget all the Alter Cup boats were set up the same no matter what the crew weight.
If they had been allowed to tweak the rig (spreader rake and diamond tension) you would have seen the guys that got the rig right would have been the faster.

it wouldn't have changed much. the atler cup is still about the best team on the water.

Ok, that last rant of mine sounded a little harsh, I stand by the comments, but it was harsh. Consider this reply a bit more helpful.

Why do you not like the F18 and want to change to the F16. I'll start the ball rolling...

- F18 has a big rig and at 135kg crew weight you are probably a little light.
- You state that you have different crews. This would be a pain in F18, as I understand it, because you'll need to change correctors each time you go sailing.
- You don't like the weight of the F18 for onshore handling.
- You state you have a female on board (crew or skipper). F18 may be too much for her strength wise...(speculating/generalising here, sorry if I offend)

All these are reasons for the F16 class rules being the way they are already.

A little off-topic tangent from that...how does the F18 class maintain appropriate corrector weights during a season of club racing? Teams change, individual body weights change. Could you race for the season without getting weighed and beef up or slim down to optimum weight on the sly?

Nick, I dont think Dave wants to change our rules. I think he just brings up honest questions. There is nothing wrong with asking questions when people are in doubt.

Dave I would love to share a F16 starting line with you. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, let me know. I will be glad to let you use my blade. It is currently stored at GYC mast up, can be in the water in around 30 minutes max.

Robi

Thanks for the offer

Nick,

I like the F18 class and the weight rules and think they work great. My wife crews with me when my regular team mate can't so I can go to the regatta. She really does not like to sail that much but will if I ask her (does not like wind above 15knots and won't go). We my wife and I are really a little light for the F18 unless we go with the small sails. At the small club regattas the other sailors let us just add the weight to use the large sails and then more weight to meet the class rules. The sailors in our area just police themselves on boat and crew weight.

My thought about getting an F16 was I could sail by myself when I wanted to. My wife could sail with me if she wanted. The boat would be easer to move around. My only concern was sailing with my regular team mate If we would be too heavy. I was also thinking about an A cat and keeping the F18 also.
I really just did not want 2 boats.

Ding,
Of course you are right.
The Alter Cup is about getting the best out of what is provided and that finds the best team.

I should have qualified my post.


"Had all the teams been equal" and they were allowed to vary their rig. The team that set their rig right for their weight would have been the quickest.

The added advantage of sailing your own boat at other regattas, in addition to setting up your rig you can also have sails cut to your weight. Although the rig is pretty tuneable.

Ding just craves abuse! David, here's a boot in the nuts for ya!

Ncik has brought up a good point that is at the heart of the question and the answer. Perfect equality can never be had. Certain make-ups of weather conditions, crews and boats will be favoured in one instance and disadvantaged in others. Even in strict one design classes and classes with elaborate equalization systems it will be that way. The real question is of course how large the differences really are, and whether they are considered to be dominant in the final result. The first is something science can answer and the latter is subject to personal opinion and here we have as many opinions as there are sailors. Some think 1 min difference per hour racing is perfectly acceptable another feels 2 minutes per hour is perfectly acceptable. Only you can make that judgement for yourself.

With regards to your specified weights :

300 lbs (you and wife) = 136 kg
330 lbs (you and friend) = 149 kg
175 lbs (you) = 79 kg

The 136 kg and 79 kg are just perfect; again because they are centred in the competitive weight range as I know it to be. As such there is no way that you can be disadvantaged in any significant sense. Like that you cover both bases (light and strong winds) equally well and in the long run you will always come out on top if your skills are assumed to be perfectly equal to all others.

The 149 kg is indeed higher up in the competitive crew weight range but in my opinion it is still sufficiently inside it. More importantly however the difference between 149 kg and 136 kg is small enough (13 kg) to be using the same optimized mainsail (for 140 kg). I see absolutely no need to have different rigs here.

Many of us race singlehanded with our 2-up mainsails. And that can be done very well in my opinion. But if you are looking for the ultimate competitively, lets say with fully optimized A-cats sailed by skilled skippers (this is a harsh criterium) then yes a special 1-up F16 mainsail will just give you that extra oompf. Is is not different in power but it will just have that little extra drive coming of the bottom of your mainsail together with slightly better accelleration because of the flatter top that twists out superiorly. As such you just pick up a little extra pointing and speed each time a guts comes along or a wave shakes the rig. In perfectly stable conditions the difference will be very small indeed. Just use the same spinnaker.

I don't have too much data on the performance differences between perfectly equal skippers and boats where one is sailing with a 2-up main and the other with a special 1-up main. Mostly they also use different masts and so on. But looking over the data that I do have I'm surprised how small the differences really are. Certainty small enough in my opinion to be far removed from being uncompetitive. And of course it is far more economically attractive to buy a single boat with an additional 1-up mainsail then buying and keeping 2 seperate boats like the F18 and A-cat.

An added advantage could be that if the wind are really honking and your wife is in doubt to go out then you could always throw the 1-up sail on the boat and have it be very calm and relaxed. You don't want to race competitive 2-up like that as you'll loose some speed that way even in very big wind, that I do know, but for recreational sailing and tuesday night club racing it will be fine. And way better then doing the F18 1-up or the A-cat 2-up. And of course getting out on the course always beats staying on shore when your crew says "no thank you" to doing 15+ winds on a F18 with 300 lbs combined. I guess that my point here is that even when things are not perfect they may still be significantly better then the alternatives.

That is the data I have about these boats, but I always end with advicing to just find out for yourself by actually borrowing a boat and racing it in the different configurations. Afterall, only you can pass judgements on what you would consider sufficiently small differences.

I hope this helps you in your research.

Wouter

Ok Im confused..
In the F18 rules.. Where exactly is the extra weight carried?
If its on the boat its static and provides less righting moment than a few kilos of lard.. Lets say the light crew has to add 50Kg to get up to weight.. The difference in righting moment is significant advantage for the heavy weight crew.. So the light weight crew is disadvantaged in all wind ranges.

If its on a crew in term of a weight belt its dangerous and tiring.. So a light crew would have to be stronger than the heavy weight crew.. As they would have to carry the extra weights personally and do the normal sail adjustments.. So again the heavy weight crew has an advantage..

So tell me how is this rule fairer?