Are there any M18s in the US?

I know of one in Florida owned by Brett Moss I believe.

Wouter

I believe that Bret sails an A Class with a spin. For some reason I think that he sold that boat recently and has a new boat, but the boat is still in Florida.

It is not a M18.

It is Marstrom A cat, he just fitted a spinnaker onto it.

Aren't the hulls for a Marstrom A-cat the same as for his M18? In which case I would like to communicate with Brett.

I have in my notes that Clive Mayo has a M18. I couldn't find him in a search. Don't know where he sails.

Steve

He sails in South FL. If you want to get in touch with him, try reaching coconut grove sails. Ask for John or Carla Schifer, I believe they are good friends. Maybe than can give you a better idea on how to contact Clive.

I am knowledgable as to the M20, but exactly what is the M18. If you go to Marström's website, you will not find the M18. thank you for the information.

The M18 was identical to the A-cat except for wider beam, a bit larger mainsail and a spi. As far as I know they only made a few M18.

/hakan

Hakan, I sent you an email about your M18 to hakan.frojdh'at'bostream.nu. If you did not receive it, how may I contact you. Steve

I got your mail and here's the answer.
Sailing the M18 with double trapeze is possible and the platform can handle it. I've sailed my A-class with a combined weight of 125 kg and single trapeze and noticed that the mast top flexed too much and you lose a lot of power from the sail. Mitch Booth made a F18ht out of a M18 by adding a cut down M20 mast, M20 centerboards and about 40 kg of lead in the main beam to meet the minimum weights. The platform was ok but the boat seemed to be a bit low in the water.

If you keep the crew weight below 140 kg you will probably get it high enough in the water but you need a stiffer mast! Try a F18Ht mast and sail maybe?

/hakan

Thanks, Hakan. I do have a p-19 cf mast that would probably work fine. So, anybody have some Marstrom Acat hulls they want to sell? Steve

Why go through all that trouble; just buy an F16. That is cheaper as well.

Wouter

I'm not sure what our target is with this project.

If you want high performance single and double handed boat you really need to get into the development loop of the A-class and F18ht, which means that you need two masts, one A-class and one F18ht and you must sail it as an uni rigged boat. You can't just get two hulls, you need a complete Marstrom A-class and then an extra F18ht mast with sail.

As a F18ht turbo, 85 kg all up weight with F18ht sail and mast (add 10 kg for bigger sail, spi equipment and spi pole), it has the potential of being a really fast double hander.

If you want to go the easy way, buy a F16.

/hakan

My Stingray has a Ausy wing 30ft mast does this mean I could change that rig to my A and make a tiny bit of room in my shed. Could the platform support that extra power and weight it would certainly scream along or is that a longer mast than you envision, small rig Stingrays have a 28ft mast and I happen to have one of those in the shed
regards

I saw a nearly new obviously unused Bimare 18HT for sale 3 weeks ago for $4k complete in Florida. Wow- I thought!
Bret Moss and Clive Mayo have been running their spin Marstrom A-cats in distance races using the Snail snuffer. Quite successful, I thought, whilst watching them disappear downwind in several Mug Races. Bret was 3rd 2 years ago in little air, being caught near the finish-- by Roberts' RC30. Not bad for an investment of about $30K.
See line 1 above.

Hakan, my project goal is: 1)boat under 250lb, 2)high performance single hander (recreational- serious ocean sailing) adequate double hander. 3)Min length 18'

On min length: My sailing parameters are quite close to the F-16hp, but my experience and those of a couple of professionals in catsailing say that there is no substitute for length. I have owned a H16, H17 and a P19, sailed in a good blow on I18, I20. I have had reasonable time on a Tornado, N6.0, N5.0. The only thing I haven't done is actually sail a f-16. I went to meet Eric P. at Bear Lake to sail his T4.9, but he broke his spreader, so no go. I vaguely recall that Eric had a similar observation about length, but weight and simplicity were more important to him than ultimate sailing performance in rough conditions. I prefer 19' but am willing to go down to 18' on a modern design. Additionally, there is a great deal of experience and experimenting going into the 18' cat: Acat, 18sq, F18, F18ht.

So, if I understand your above comments correctly, you think the M18 platform would perform well under a f18ht rig? I'm not interested in competing in the A cat league. So that simplifies my rig requirements.

I'm interested in the DK17 for this same purpose and have emailed Bill Vining for his observations.

There actually is and they are called T-foil rudders.

Wouter

An F18HT rig on an A-cat platform ?

Talking about a touchy boat. The A-cat hulls don't nearly have enough volume to handle that rig well in any decent wind and seastate with 2 people on board. Sorry. Note I'm not saying anything aout stuff breaking here, just commenting on how it will behave. That F18HT rig is very large rig and also the A-cat platform is narrow at only 2.3 mtr wide. Wasn't the F18HT mast also over 15 kg's ? Replacing the 9-10 kg A-cat mast with that one will make a difference in the dive tendencies as well. Not to mention the fact that it is 10 mtr tall, which is about a whole meter (3 feet) more then most A-cats masts.

That is not going to work out well, sorry. The specs are simply wrong.

Cutting down the F18HT mast is silly as you'll end up with an extremely stiff mast that way, which is really not what you want on a sensitive platform like the A-cat. The boat will be transforming into a bicepts training apparatus (mainsheet sawing) rather then a well behaved racing boat.

I'm sorry but may I say that this discussion is going into the direction of putting a Ford Cossworth motor onto a go-cart in addition to adding a passengers seat and then expecting to good (racing) results.

Wouter

I've asked Hakan about his M18 because searching the forums showed there were 2 Acats with subtantial extra buoyancy, Marstrom and DK17. Rigging wise, I would probably put my P19 main and genaker on it, or similar. The f18ht rig would be too much. I would also beam it out. So, Wouter, have you sailed the M18?

I've sailed many beach cats but not the M18. Like Hakan said, not many of these have been build. I don't think there is a single one in the Netherlands. I was only allowed to touch is a Round Texel event several years ago. Does that count ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




There is significant difference between having "substantial extra bouyancy" from a 1-up crew weight perspective and having "substantial extra bouyancy' to take a much larger, heavier and much more powerful rig with a crew of 2.

How much does your P19 mast weight including its battens ? Note that every kg difference to the 15 all-up weight of the A-cat rig is going up there and will be swinging about. Last time I checked an alu P19 rig weighted just over 25 kg. Also the P19 mainsail still has 17.70 sq. mtr. surface area, the A-cat only 13.85 sq.mtr. This means you are overclocking the rig by 28 % already. You don't solve that by adding a few liters of bouyancy here and there.

With respect to equalizing the righting moment, think about adding no less then 3 feet of extra width just to break even. Making the overall boat 3.2 mtr wide, or wider then the Tornado. When you think the H16 is dive happy then you should try to sail this contraption in a big blow.

Come to think of it. These numbers are almost identical to a 18 sq. so why don't just by one of those ?

Do the math and you'll see that the specs really don't fit well to one another.

Wouter