| I love racing, but I'm tired of going in circles #12211 10/28/02 04:39 PM 10/28/02 04:39 PM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 217 jcasto1 OP
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Posts: 217 | I love my catamaran. I love racing my catamaran. I love racing my catamaran upwind & downwind. I love racing my catamaran a long distance. I love *sailing* my catamaran back & forth across the lake as fast as I can, but I almost never get to do this in a "race".
How come there aren't more catamaran "races" that have nice long reaches, or crazy slalom shaped courses? Here's some reasons I can imagine are used.
Strategic - the strategic aspects of W-L courses (windward/leeward) represent the "pinnacle" of sailing skill. I say this a load of cr**. The pinnacle of sailing skill is demonstrated by whoever wins the sailing race. Everyone has the same rules, the same course, and the same chance at winning.
Handicaps - handicap numbers are derived based on certain course configurations or assumptions about them. I don't buy it. With the exception of Texel, every cat race score that I've seen posted (mostly US, I'll admit) uses the same Portsmouth numbers, even if it's a 100 mile course downwind, or a 50 mile course around an island, or a true windward-leeward "round the buoys" course. If everyone had their own handicap numbers, this reason (excuse?) would be more believable.
Race Committee workload - I've worked race committee countless times, and it's just as easy to set up a course to be a reach, as it is to set one up as a windward-leeward. For distance races where race direction at start is downwind, we've done downwind starts, or made a short upwind section on first leg of race.
Consistency - when you host a regatta, you want participants to be able to plan correctly, and compete fairly. If every club had crazy shaped courses, no one would know what to expect until they showed up. But this kind of home court advantage already is built into lots of races. Local sailing conditions on a lake or bay is just one kind of home court advantage. Many yacht clubs, and even cat clubs, use permanent buoys in lakes bays or channels, as marks of their races. Unless you use GPS and program in the waypoints, locals will always have advantages (What course is an I7? Where the he** is K mark? Is a "X" mark an obstruction or a mark of the course?). It reminds me of my first distance race - for some reason they started all the slow & novice boats first - I couldn't even see the first mark - my friend said "just sail on starboard, close-hauled, till everyone catches up with you, then follow".
Well, maybe this is the only reason that's valid - everyone's doing W-L, so if I don't, they won't come to my regatta.
What do you think?
Do you like sailing on reaches? I know you do, it's OK to admit it!
Jim Casto NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7 Austin TX Lake Travis
| | | Re: I love racing, but I'm tired of going in circl
[Re: Jacques]
#12213 10/28/02 11:45 PM 10/28/02 11:45 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 33 Canes
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Posts: 33 | I couldn't agree more. What ever happened to using B mark? AC, ACAC, ACACAC, ACA......boring......bring back the reaches. When I used to race in the 80's, that was the most exciting part of the race, and can be very tactical as well. It isn't necessarily the fastest boat that gets from A to B. It can also be the one that positions himself the best or uses the rules to his/her advantage. I feel removing the B mark did more harm than good.
I was at a race earlier this year where they finally did use a B mark and many people were confused by this and didn't know how to sail it. It was actually funny listening to the comments on the beach. "Wow, I never used a B mark before, that was kind of fun". "How did X boat catch up to me so much on that reach?" Gee, imagine a change from the standard sausage courses being fun.
I concur with Jim's sentiments about the ease of setup and poor excuses for not using another mark. I would also recommend putting this mark closer to shore so people on shore have something to watch.
There are many more variations of courses simply by adding another mark, AC stuff gets old after a while.
Kip Taylor
The Dalles, OR.....soon to be Boise!
TheMightyHobie18 | | | Re: I love racing, but I'm tired of going in circles
[Re: jcasto1]
#12216 10/29/02 01:08 PM 10/29/02 01:08 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 180 Chelmsford, MA Barry
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Posts: 180 Chelmsford, MA | I 100% disagree. A reaching mark makes everyone go the same way on the course. Where can you put time on the boats behind you? A windward leward course opens up the whole course to you. I like to add one reaching leg at a weekend race. It's nice for the fun factor but not the true racing. Also under porthmouth ratings, it can mess up the results when spinnaker and non-spinnaker boats are racing.
I had the Area A US sailing rep intenionaly move a "B" mark around till it was too high to fly a spinnaker to the mark and too high to fly a spinnaker to "C". Well my rating is calulated on using the spinnaker 50% of the time. He was trying to favor the course to favor the 6.0's. When I asked him about it he admited he was trying to use the "B" mark so I couldn't fly the spinnaker on the reach or after I rounded B.
We also had a bad collision at B mark this year. There are two proper courses at B. One is to jibe at the mark the other is to continue by the mark. This has caused a serious accident this year. It would be wiser to put the engery into a offset mark instead of a reaching mark.
Reach around in between races or after racing is over.
Last edited by Barry; 10/29/02 01:11 PM.
| | | Re: I love racing, but I'm tired of going in circles
[Re: Barry]
#12219 10/29/02 02:25 PM 10/29/02 02:25 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I've seen Rick White request that a B mark be added close, but not too close, to the A mark (say 50 - 75 yards). While it doesn't give you a very long reaching leg, it does clear up all the clutter at the A mark on a crowded course or when you have boats with large differences in speed. You still get a belly full of downwind tactics and a reaching leg to satisfy the speedsters.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: They call that an "offset" mark
[Re: Canes]
#12224 10/29/02 11:52 PM 10/29/02 11:52 PM |
Joined: Apr 2002 Posts: 96 Racine, Wisconsin Leo
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Posts: 96 Racine, Wisconsin | Modified olympic is my vote. A course featuring beat reach reach beat run beat makes it a well balanced race course IMHO.
I've raced enough monodulls in my short life to know first hand how annoyed skippers of particular boats get when the RC runs nothing but windward lewards. Modified olympic makes it a race for both the reachers and the runners
Cats being a reaching kind of boat, why not throw in an afterburner igniting leg or two?
Paul Scott Bartelt
2001 NACRA 6.0 NA #546
| | | Re: I'm still tired of going in circles
[Re: Tom Korz]
#12225 10/30/02 12:33 AM 10/30/02 12:33 AM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 217 jcasto1 OP
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Posts: 217 | Several of the W-L-only crowd have pointed out the inherent dangers of a gibe mark (B) being placed at end of an extremely fast reaching leg. I think this is a valid concern, and needs to be addressed by the reachers among us.
There is an excellent solution for this one. The reaching mark, or "B" mark, doesn't necessarily have to be at the "top" or windward end of the course. I've been to several regattas where the "B" mark is set at the leeward end of course. The advantage here is obvious for beach regattas with a typical afternoon sea breeze - the reaching leg is close to shore, and is easier for spectators to see the fastest leg of the race. I think this course configuration also eliminates any of the concern about high speed reaching boats coming into a mark where some boats may want to jibe, some may not. Since the "B" mark is at the leeward end of the course, all boats are essentially sailing downwind to it. And, at the end of the high speed reaching leg, boats aren't turning as sharply around the leeward mark (C mark), they're just sheeting in & hardening up to the wind, maybe tacking.
Now I just had a flashback - I remember a regatta in the 80s where we had a quadrilateral shaped course - it had a reaching leg at top of course, and one at bottom of course. 4 marks to round for one lap. Does anyone else have experience with this confiuration? I think it may have been an experiment in 89-92 timeframe by US Sailing for performance dinghy type of races.
Jim Casto NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7 Austin TX Lake Travis
| | | Re: Reaching legs are tactical
[Re: Barry]
#12228 10/30/02 10:46 AM 10/30/02 10:46 AM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 217 jcasto1 OP
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Posts: 217 | Barry, you keep contradicting yourself. You say on a triangle, or on a reaching leg, the only tactic is "trying to get clean air". Then you say on an "open course (WL I assume), "if a competitor is on top of you, you can jibe away". Isn't this the definition of "trying to get clean air? Your logic is a bit twisted , I think. Tactics are tactics, regardless. Skill at sailing a reach is still sailing skill. If you can't seem to pass anyone on a reach, maybe you just need more practice. I know I do. The Portsmouth numbers are derived from actual data, and one of the listed assumptions on page http://www.ussailing.org/portsmouth/index.htmreads as follows : "boats have in almost all documented cases sailed on courses including the three basic sailing angles: beating, reaching and running". If you know this has not been the case with races where someone has reported data to the Portsmouth Committee, you need to be sure that it is noted with the data. A lot of the negative comments about B mark concerns the angle it is set at relative to A (or C, if it is at leeward end of course). This can be addressed at a club, division, fleet or class level by documenting the correct shape of the course in some kind of RC manual. In years past, the Tornado class rules actually mentioned a 70-90 degree angle when describing the preferred race course. Just as windhsifts can ruin a perfectl good WL course, same can happen to a reaching leg. But at least there can be guidance to RC about the desired position of the mark, relative to wind direction.
Jim Casto NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7 Austin TX Lake Travis
| | | Re: Reaching legs are tactical
[Re: Barry]
#12230 10/30/02 12:30 PM 10/30/02 12:30 PM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 217 jcasto1 OP
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Posts: 217 | Actually, Barry, I did know exactly what you were getting at, I just wanted you to come out & say it. You did a pretty good job describing your frustration with reaching legs.
I'm not sure why you think fighting for clear air, finding a way to use waves to your advantage, and the heightened concentration & boathandling which is necessary on reaching legs is not a gratifying part of catamaran racing for you. There are windshifts, and changes in velocity on reaching legs, just like on windward or downwind legs. Anticipating and handling these windshifts & waves, are all parts of the tactics of getting your boat to go faster than your opponent. And they are a hell of a lot more fun.
You may be right, you may be racing at a "level" that is different than what I'm racing at. Perhaps there is a place for W-L only races - one-design fleet racing at the championship level, or match racing. But at open regattas, where the (stated or unstated) goals are increasing participation and attracting new participants to our sport, W-L only courses are a losing proposition. Our sport has lost many potential participants, because we have abandoned parts of the sport that are fun. I think we can have fun & good racing at the same time. Reaching legs.
Jim Casto NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7 Austin TX Lake Travis
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