Trouble in Paradise

Although many of you would like to nominate Matt McDonald to a position of sainthood I am here to cast a descending vote. I live in the state of New Mexico where there is one tiny natural lake and maybe ten sail able reservoirs. The water levels are not constant and the shores are not white sandy beaches with grassy knolls a foot above the high tide mark. The reservoir closest to me is known for its swirling winds; shifting, gusting winds are the norm and except for light air conditions main sheets are not cleated. Much of the shore line is rocky.

During one presale conversation I asked Matt McDonald, "maybe your boat isn't tough enough for these lakes?". He said that I'd be okay if I got off the boat and walked it ashore and not ride it up on the beach the way you can get away with on a Hobie 16. Because of the shore conditions and the strong shifty winds I ordered a "strong" boat. I was told that if I wanted a strong boat that I should get the model that had fiberglass laminate on the inside and Kevlar on the outside. So that's what I did. When assembling the boat I discovered a large difference in weight between the two hulls, a 5 or 7 pound difference. When I approached Matt McDonald at Vectorworks Marine about my concerns he listed several things which could be causing the difference and said that both hulls were within specifications. "But what is the difference?", I said. He said, "it is what it is".

I sailed it ten times during the fall of 2006 and the port hull sustained quite a few dings, cracks in the gel coat and laminate. After that the port hull always took on some water and it no longer held pressure. During the winter I decided that I'd stop sailing at Cochiti Lake and go to lakes further away. During the spring of 2007 I went to Storrie Lake 8 times, Heron Lake once for four days and Elephant Butte for two days. In May I went to Storrie Lake and when I was putting the boat back on the trailer I opened the drain plugs and a lot of water came out of the port hull. I found a puncture near the middle of the hull, on the bottom. I was immediately enraged as I hadn't heard or felt an impact. I was convinced that there was a significant difference between the two hulls. The starboard hull has scratches in the gel coat with no cracks but one tiny chip of gel missing for unknown reason. The port hull has at least 8 places where the gel is cracked and probably the laminate is crushed or caved inward. The boat has not been in the water since May, '07.

I took a bunch of pictures which wasn't that easy to do, something about a white hull against a bright sky. Any way I lined up the pictures, port on the left side of the page and starboard on the right, three pages of pictures and my complaint and sent them off to Matt McDonald at Vectorworks Marine. The response, after my prompting, was about what he thought of me and my sailing skills and several presumptions but nothing about my ringing question, 'why is one hull doing so well and the other is doing so poorly'?

I found a SAMS marine surveyor in Breckenridge Colorado and towed the boat up there over an 11,500 foot pass on a narrow 2 lane road. He verified the weight difference, did an air leak test with me blowing into a plastic tube pushed into the drain plug hole and found 5 places where soapy water bubbled on the port hull. There was not one leak on the starboard hull. He wondered why all these minor cracks away from the puncture were leaking even though they were not punctures. He said that the two hull halves were not fully sealed at the seam and showed me how the starboard hull had extra resin poured over the seam. He felt that the hulls were distinctly different. He included this and other information in his report and I sent one copy to Matt McDonald. There was no response but I know they got it because I sent everything certified, return receipt, and I have receipts.

I sent my complaint to the Florida Attorney Generals office and they forwarded it to the Department of Agriculture and Consumers Affairs. Matt McDonald responded to them with a lot about what he thought of me and my skills and a lot about what he thought of himself and his product. Still, the complaint was not addressed, 'why is the port hull so fragile and brittle compared the starboard hull which is tough and resilient like the one I ordered? Consumer affairs closed the case as "Satisfactory" and I complained with many pages including e-mails I'd saved over the course of a year which contradicted much of Matt McDonald's statements. Consumer Affairs changed the findings to "CMC" (mediation unsuccessful with consumer).

I sent a complaint to the Bigger Business Bureau of Central Florida and the Matt McDonald response was virtually the same but not quite as mean. They closed the case saying, "Company made every reasonable effort to resolve". I complained but they told me to get an attorney.

A week or so later I reread, or should I say misread Matt McDonald's letter to the BBB and thought it said there was a patch of fiberglass over the bottom of every hull. I invested in a sanding block (2X4-7 inches) and course sand paper. I began sanding very carefully through the gel coat at an angle perpendicular to the length of the hull. As I got through the outer gel, ( the very hard, brittle, not well bonded outer gel) and into the inner gel small pin holes started appearing, as I got down to the laminate, the fabric looked like a waffle. Many of the open areas between the weave of the fabric were not only thin of resin but completely void of resin. I can literally put a piece of wire through the holes and push on the inner foam, which is springy.

When I found this I felt quite satisfied that I'd found the problem, finally clear evidence that what I'd been sensing now has a reason. Although there is a composite structure where there is tensile strength of the fibers there is not enough resin to provide compression strength. It really depends upon the gel coat for compression strength which is okay but it's on the wrong side of the laminate, it's strong against a push from the inside of the hull but not a push from the outside. It wasn't until the next morning I asked myself, "but where are the yellow stringy fibers that they talk about when sanding Kevlar, why was I sanding into the laminate when kevlar can't be sanded and faired out?" Simple, it's not kevlar. It's fiberglass.

I took four pictures and sent them to 'you know who'. They accepted the mailing on 30 Oct. '07. I got the normal response, nothing.

I'm curious to know what others think of this very porous construction. I haven't found any discussion of this very lean composite. I can't visualize how that much resin could be sucked out of the sandwich with vacuum bagging and not have air to replace it. Not being that familiar with hull construction I'm wondering if a partially impregnated fiber glass with vacuum bagging could yield these results?

On two occasions Matt McDonald told me that if I got off the boat and walked it ashore I'd be okay. The starboard has performed to this standard beautifully, the port hull has failed miserably.


I don't know how to make fiberglass into Kevlar. I'm thinking that I could take the gel off the bottom of the hull and work some vinyl ester or epoxy into the open weave, then put an eight or ten inch patch of fiberglass over the length of the keel?

Will Lints

I don't know what to say. I'm sorry you are having a problem. I don't know how to advise you. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Not much to say about the issues until we hear both sides of the story.



Resin or gelcoat dont add much compression strengt. It's always the fibers that add strength, both in compression and tension.
If the outer laminate is kevlar, you should see "the yellow stuff" after sanding away the gelcoat. There might be a glass cover outside the kevlar depending on how they build their hulls, but I would think you would be able to see the kevlar. You dont want to sand into the kevlar, ever!


I dont know how much you know about sandwich construction, but one question: Have you ever hit anything with the boat? Rocks, concrete etc? Cracks in the laminate is bad news and not something I would expect in a production boat. If you e.g. dont use beachwheels but drag the boat over rocks or concrete you will ruin a sandwich hull in no time. Same for hitting submerged rocks or other solid stuff. There is no warranty covering such things. It would be good to see pictures of the damages and the hull you sanded with exposed laminate.

Yes, i did hit some rocks, that's what made it crack. But it cracked way too easily. I'll try to attach a picture.

Interesting

I guess since my boat is 707 then my boat was the next one built. That is my understanding at least.
I have had no problems and I have the kevlar hulls too. I haven't sanded through them though. The only issue I have is how the hull is fairly dent prone but we have discussed this. It doesn't help that I fell off the top hull and landed on one heel when I capsized the last time. I didn't puncture the hull though. I may have created a problem when walking on the bottom hull too (separated a stringer??). The starboard hull took on a little water but I believe I fixed that by reseating the front beam with silicone.

Overall I am very impressed with how strong my boat is given some of the conditions I have sailed in. I wouldn't hesitate to take my boat out in 20++ winds from a structural standpoint.

How hard did you hit the rocks?

PTP,

I think my boat is a later build but I got an earlier sail number. Based on the Hull number I think mine would be 722 in the sequence. The Hull number is VEC60722G606, at least the starboard hull is. The port hull only has a number hand written with permanent marker inside, adjacent to the forward inspection hole.
I wish I were getting dents, that's what I expected. I think you can fill dents with 'Marine Tex' and sand it smooth. I have no problem going out in twenty knots, my fear is that if / when I capsize the boat could get away from me and I know I can't catch up to it swimming in that much wind.
The rocks were mostly a matter of bringing it up on shore. Once there was a submerged rock off shore,I was bringing the boat to shore, the wind was off shore and I was down stream of the boat and I knew I'd contacted a rock but was pushing the boat to shore and I was chest deep in the water. I didn't feel like I had much choice but to proceed to shore. The last one that penetrated the hull must have happened while rigging the main. It was a muddy shore with an occasional small rock, there were white caps so I was kind of struggling for control.
I'll attach photos of the hulls. It may take 3 posts to get them in as they're about 1.6MB each.
Will

Photos, page 2

Photo, page 3

That boat has taken some serious abuse!

It's a lightweight racing boat for crissakes. If you needed a boat to take that kind of abuse Will (and no disrespect intended) you should have gone for something rotomoulded.

While I'll admit that the differences between port and starboard hulls might be somewhat puzzling, it could be simply down to prevailing wind dir where you sail, particular route always followed out of the water or sundry other reasons.

Bottom line though? I wouldn't expect ANY make of GRP or epoxy boat to take the sort of abuse that those photos show without problems (and I'll include an H16 in that statement, even though you've got one). I just wouldn't choose to abuse a boat in that way. I have sailed on and off rocky coastlines, shingle beaches, concrete ramps etc. and my boats always touch only the water and the trolley - nothing else.

If you have a concern over the construction of one hull over the other then surely discuss that aspect with VMW, even have the construction reported on (you'll have to cut a section from each hull). But to blame VMW for the damage evidenced by those photos is IMHO plain wrong.

Will,

I am sorry, but I have to agree with John. Sandwich construction buildt light enough for a catamaran need to be treated carefully. Hitting rocks or letting waves and wind pound the boat on rock or concrete will ruin the laminate and make repairs neccesary. You can park the boat on a sandy beach, with care, but the boat should go directly from the water to the beachwheels.

A 5 - 7 lbs difference between hulls isn't that much. It can be caused by a lot of things. I would not worry overly about it knowing that advanced sandwich construction need aircraft grade quality systems to produce identical parts. We would not be able to pay for aircraft grade quality tough..

If I was you, I would have the boat repaired (not impossible at all, just need to let it dry out) and moved on. I am sorry to hear your story but hope you fix the boat and continue sailing it.

Will your photos clearly show that the boat was subjected to punishment outside the design criteria of a High Performance composite Race Boat.

It is fortunate for Vector works and Matt that you posted the series of pictures. Hopefully they will put to rest any accusations of poor quality or non responsiveness.

Regards,
Bob

Will, I see a set of beach wheels in the background of some of the photos. Beach wheels are a good way to keep any damage from occuring during launch and recovery. Could you please explain how you did this kind of damage if not dragging the boat over rocks? Did you sail it onto the rocks? In that case, you are lucky you only had one small hole in one hull.

Here's a thought; If you had an acidental collision with a rock, hidden or not, call your insurance co. and send them these pictures, get them to pony up for the repairs, and then stay away from rocks. I get off my boat in a foot or two of water and put the wheels under it any time I move it, and that's with only soft white sand under it.

I agree with all the previous comments, look after your investment. Running it aground is not looking after it.

The only thing that looks a little suspicious though in those photos is what appears to be the outer layer of gelcoat chipping off to reveal an inner layer of gelcoat. I would only expect 1 layer of gelcoat and if a second is required for whatever reason, it will be preped properly to ensure a good bond between layers.

I had a dinghy that got scratched up on one side more than the other. A cat with widely separate hulls will also experience assymetry with regards to damage.

I was helping the local Taipan rep demo his boat to a beach sailor from Va Beach.

They sailed the boat ... he loved it... loved the weight etc etc.

Then the deal breaker.

He insisted that he would only buy the boat if he was sure he could drag it up the beach... He would not use beach wheels... he had to know that he could simply drag by the front cross bar over rocks and debris.... He planned to have a bottom job done on the boat every year.

Needless to say... the dealer did not let him drag his boat across the beach... The guy was very offended..I came all this way to see this boat... blah blah blah.

Point is... Lots of different kinds of sailors out there.

Will:
I have hull number 721, with the kevlar option so made just before or at same time as yours.
I thought mine had gone through a rough year's use until I saw yours.
I have not sustained any encounters with rocks (knock on wood) but that was only due to dumb luck, not my seamanship. I have come real close though. Ask Eric how close we came one day in the Alamitos channel. I do have the occasional dimple from knee, elbow, beach wheel bar, trailer guide and mast (don't ask). I have gracefully fallen off the high hull and landed on my hip on the lower one, cracking the gel coat but apparently not the kevlar, the foam core or the inner fiberglass.
I've broken the spinnaker pole, the boom and one tiller bar. In thirty years I never broke any of those parts on the the fiberglass and wood Shark catamaran that I replaced with the Blade. The Shark however, weighed in at least at 600 lbs., probably more.
When I cracked the gelcoat after falling on the hull, I consulted Matt, and made the repair myself before putting the boat back in the water.
Any high performance machine like the Blade will not sustain the abuse you describe without damage. Damage of the type your photos show should have been repaired as soon as practical. None of the problems your photos show look like design or manufacturing defects to me, nor do they look so serious that they couldn't be repaired in a weekend or two.
Hope you'll fix the boat and come out to Long Beach to go sailing. Need more West Coast F16s.
John

Come to Florida, you'll fit right in! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

One thing that is sometimes overlooked when purchasing one of these boats is that if you sail solo you’ll still need assistance for launching and landing as you can’t just park the boat on the beach while you put away and later retrieve the beach wheels (i.e. someone will have to bring them to you or you’ll risk damaging the boat). Unless of course there is absolutely no wind, waves or rocks present. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The Jacksonville Rudder Club had a nice way to accomodate this ... they put mooring buoys just off the ramp. Now you can tie up to one of them and leave your boat (temporarily) while you retrieve your wheels. Works pretty great.

Or you could carry a small 10 lb anchor, drop it in 3 feet of water, get your wheels and then bring the boat in, as long as you don't have a strong onshore wind/waves pushing the boat toward the rocks.

Hobie makes a roto-molded 16 foot cat called a Getaway that shuould survive a rocky shore if that is going to be a constant problem.