| Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position #126705 12/20/07 05:53 PM 12/20/07 05:53 PM | Anonymous
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Unregistered | A small piece of good news from NZ - ----- YNZ Statement: Olympics 2012 Date Released: 20 December 2007 The Board of Yachting New Zealand has resolved to make a submission to the ISAF mid year meeting requesting that the events slate for the 2012 Olympic Games be revisited. The Board consulted with the Olympic Committee and the High Performance Committee on the matter and made the decision to make such a submission based on the longer term view of the future of sailing at the Olympics rather than the specific medal opportunities at the 2012 Games. ----- Interestingly, this is not listed in the "Latest Media Releases" on their home page, but is linked from the media release page accessible from the News menu. | | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: ]
#126706 12/20/07 06:17 PM 12/20/07 06:17 PM | Anonymous
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Unregistered | Hey John W. - I'm not sure where you guys are up to in your work on this issue but I wonder if I could offer a small suggestion... I think it would be good for the MHC to formally (and very politely of course) request that USSA (a) support the requests from YNZ and RYA for a reconsideration of the Olympic decision and (b) specifically seek that any subsequent vote by the ISAF Council be explicitly worded as a vote on the selection of events that most fully meet the Olympic event criteria defined in ISAF Regulation 16.1.5, not just "what events do you want to be in the Olympics". I believe the thing that has screwed up this whole situation is people voting based on their own narrow national interests, not in the interests of the sport or the Olympics. Even if it doesn't actually change the way people vote, at least they won't be able to get away with public statements about national interest like those we've seen in the past months from USSA and YNZ. | | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: ]
#126707 12/20/07 06:56 PM 12/20/07 06:56 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Hi Mark -
I like the way you think, but the reality we're facing is that the majority of the members of the Board at US SAILING got exactly what they wanted in Portugal. Incidentally, some of them truly believe that the current slate of events is actually best for the US; therefore, we are unlikely to see any change in position unless we continue to see other countries do what NZL has done. Right now, the Olympic Committee and the Board (by extension) will point out that every country votes in its best interest - it will take a sea change before the current course varies. Henderson's letter indicates Olympic sailing is NOT in jeopardy - ISAF insists that the 2002 and 2005 IOC recommendations do NOT require them to drop the keelboat events; taken together, these documents cut the legs from beneath the RYA letter. Further, the RYA delegation was in favor of changing the ISAF Council voting procedure on events. For them to criticize how things turned out is being made to seem like "sour grapes."
Continued discussion using a reasoned tone is making a difference, but we have a lot of damage to undo as well as a lot of lobbying. We also are supporting international efforts leading up to the March ISAF meeting however we can.
One thing that everyone can do - get smarter on this issue. What do you know about the Star class? Can you name any Star sailors? How much is a new boat? Remember - getting a multihull event back into the Olympics most likely means eliminating the Star. Great articles in the October issues of both SAIL and Sailing World magazines - required reading, IMO, for anyone who wants the Star class to trade places with us in a few months.
Nothing about this is black and white unless you stand pretty far back, and if you get that far back, you probably just don't care one way or the other.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: John Williams]
#126708 12/20/07 07:16 PM 12/20/07 07:16 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD Keith
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Posts: 1,459 Annapolis,MD | John, Is there any traction to fact that there are two men's single-hand dinghies (Laser and Finn), with the only justification for the Finn being "heavy"? Personally I can see keeping a men's keel boat, I'd rather see the Finn go to save the multihull.
Interestingly, in the recent issue of Sail, the issue is cast as multihull versus the women's keel boat and other women's classes, which is not what I have heard on any of this discussion at all. To bad it was not pointed out at that point that the T was the only class that allowed mixed crews... | | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: Keith]
#126709 12/20/07 07:29 PM 12/20/07 07:29 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | You'd think that the heavy dinghy would be vulnerable, but it isn't... widespread international support. It was one of the five events that were considered fore-gone conclusions - even the more-forward-thinking Events Committee included it in their final recommendation to the Council. In the Sail-Juice Blog voting, I picked the Finn to be dropped, too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I've already been in e-mail contact with the senior editor of SAIL. We'll see if we can't get some additional perspective included...
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: John Williams]
#126710 12/20/07 07:50 PM 12/20/07 07:50 PM | Anonymous
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Unregistered | Understand your point John. My thought was that even if USSA were to say no to a suggestion like the one I made (and formally minute it), at least it would put very clearly out in the open the fact that they know what the regulations are and that they are making an explicit, willful decision to circumvent them. I'm just in favor of transparency. I'd like us to be able to say to them (figuratively speaking) that we know exactly what you're doing (ignoring regulations designed for the good of the sport as a whole in order to advance narrow national interests) and we know that you know that we know what you're doing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. | | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: ]
#126711 12/20/07 07:58 PM 12/20/07 07:58 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | I think that is where we're headed; without giving away too much, we're waiting for things to continue to develop a bit before putting an official motion forward in writing which will, as you say, have to be handled openly. In the mean time, there are quite a few people working to move things forward. I don't like the game of politics very much - some of the things that will be done, even with little chance of success, are simply to position a platform of issues for the longer term.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: John Williams]
#126712 12/20/07 08:05 PM 12/20/07 08:05 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA windswept
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Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA | Ther truly is a lot going on to get this back in front of the ISAF for a revote. I agree that one of the dinghies should have gone and I do not care which one. Fighting the Star is a no win situation. John, I actually do know the information that you ask on who is acitive in the class and how much a new Mader, Lillia or Folli costs.
Last edited by windswept; 12/20/07 08:09 PM.
Tom Siders A-Cat USA-79 Tornado US775
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: stuartoffer]
#126714 12/21/07 01:18 PM 12/21/07 01:18 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Well, this is a zero sum game...
Who is gong to loose if the Cats win?
Which organization Finn's or 470's or 49ners has a weaker argument for inclusion in the Olympics? Which class is the weakest?
In the USA, I would think that the 470 would be the weakest class and have the least compelling argument for inclusion. These sailors have three or four reasonable options to demonstrate the olympic skills of tactics and teamwork. The could choose a Single handed dinghy, Keel boat or double handed high performance boat or multihull that they could jump into and compete for the Olympics. Heck, one of the medalists in 470's retired from the class and is now racing Hobie 16's internationally. Demonstrating the point that these sailors have many viable options to reach the Olympics.
You could also target the 49ner.. You could argue that if high performance is the olympic skill.... then a Tornado crushes the 49ner around a race course or in a strait line and is the true test of high performance sailing skill. Morover, the skiff class is the new comer to the games and the participation in skiff sailing around the world is less then in cats. (I need to check this assertion though) As a matter of pure power politics... the high performance class may have the least support of the three. In the USA... the skiff scene is invisible in most of the country. Since the women's council chose NOT to support the High performance Dinghy for women sailors You have no argument that gender equity requires a men's skiff. ... A balanced approach would be to eliminate the 49ner. The argument would be... the multihull is a mixed class and tests the skills needed for high performance sailing .. perhaps a wisper that a smaller boat could be chosen which would allow more women to compete would be the right approach.
For sure, the non sailing public would distinguish a catamaran.... (Hey... that's a hobie cat) from all other monohulls... A 49ner... will look like a tricked out monohull to the non sailor public. For the PR value... there is nothing like a Tornado flying a hull upwind or downwind... to the TV viewer... the speed differences between a 49ner and Tornado is not really appreciated... BUT. I would argue that elevation and a burst of speed is much more exciting to watch in a puff then a burst of speed.
I agree with Tom, IF the IOC and thus ISAF are not focussed on eliminating Keel Boats, there is no hope of success or real reason to go after the Keel boat class.
So... who is the target?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#126715 12/21/07 02:22 PM 12/21/07 02:22 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Hi Mark -
My feeling is that none of the events should be "targeted." That is the unpleasant tactic that I feel should be avoided. Other classes do very well by adopting self-promotion over attacks on other disciplines or the people that make the decisions between them. The reality is that there was plenty of international support to keep the multihull event in the Games - it took monkeying with the voting procedure and lining up the dominoes to get it out. Does anyone think that the way the US Delegation pushed to have a single round of voting had anything to do with a desire for efficiency?
Again, unless we all accept that the individuals involved are doing what they truly believe to be the best thing for the US in 2012, then we're spinning our wheels, spitting into the wind, pi$$ing up a rope, etc. ad nauseum. Start there and I think you must arrive at the position other longer-lived classes have - organized, knowledgeable statesmen and women that compete within the discipline who engage their MNAs. We're woefully short in that regard (and I'm not just describing my personal stature). I'm out in front on this thing and terribly ill-equipped - if I were a savvy politico, it would have occurred to me that strategic voting was a possibility and we'd have had class representatives present. Grandfield was alone - his "bring the hammer" approach was a working part of the strategy back in March, but it was the wrong message to take to Estoril. NOT his fault! He should have been part of a team that worked together to formulate and plan.
As it stands, I honestly don't know if we (the US multihull community) can pull together the way I think would work. However, it was made clear to me by all but one or two representatives that we want to try. Having a multihull event in the Games was declared a priority - all the various reasons aside, the goal has been defined, and several volunteers have built a strategic framework for how to get there. Most multihull sailors, though, have a disdain for the blue-blazer types and the "expensive" YCs they represent - so we have a cultural hurdle to get over at some point.
I'm rambling... sorry Mark. To get back to your point - I think that the IOC would like to see the keelboats dropped - they're in for 2012 due to, as others pointed out, the Paralympics needing the facilities afterward. Drop that issue for 2016 and you're right back to the IOC's points about expense and resource-intensity. It is disingenuous for some to assert that the 2002 and 2005 IOC documents are specific for 2008 and the principles are not extended to all future Games.
Internationally, movement toward re-opening the vote is gaining momentum and will reach critical mass. When it does, we need to A) recognize the moment, and B) take appropriate action. Then we watch the majority decide without interference, and we abide by that decision.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: John Williams]
#126716 12/21/07 02:41 PM 12/21/07 02:41 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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Well, this is a zero sum game...
My feeling is that none of the events should be "targeted." That is the unpleasant tactic that I feel should be avoided. Agreed. It is a zero sum game if we just add classes (one in = one out). We can see it as a non-zero sum game if the goal is "the best choice for sailing as an Olympic sport". Since having a multihull there definitely adds to the visibility, support, TV potential and other goals shared by all sailors, it is safer and easier to go this way. It is definitely better to propose this type of "cooperative" solution. Especially when parts of it can be seen as a zero sum game.
Luiz
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: John Williams]
#126718 12/21/07 03:43 PM 12/21/07 03:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Hi John
I don't understand your position.
Are you saying... promote the multihull and the world will see the injustice and decide otherwise?
Somebodies OX will be gored in the end.. right now... it's our disipline. The multihull community is working through the MNA's that we have some influence with and will hopefully persuade ISAF to reopen the issue.
Then what...?
How do you persuade the delegates to kill off a different disipline. What is the argument? (Cats are already dead... why revive them and kill off another class)
Is the argument some version of ... our Ox is bigger and nicer looking then say... the 470 Ox or the Star Ox or the 49ner Ox.?
OK... we can make that argument effectively I think. But, you suggest that this is not the way to go!
I sounds like you are saying that the PROCESS... eg the voting rules did not lead to a result that matches the intent and values of the majority of MNA's at ISAF.
So, all we need to do is reopen the process... and use a different voting process.
This still leaves the question... Given 10 events.... What is the appeal to the values and intent of the MNA's.
I don't see how you can make the case FOR the Multihull without contrasting it with the other disiplines.
At any rate... in the USA... If the door opens to reoconsider the events ... What should we do? It would seem that we need to focus on a coherent argument for what mix of disiplines represents the state of US Sailing activity.
What has changed over the year is the ISAF women's council which opted for 4 out of 6 events so long as it includes a keel boat. The women clearly don't want a cat or a High performance dinghy. IMO, this effectively kills the US goal of getting a women's 29ner event in. There seems to be no support for this among the women. This should change the US stand.
So, this fact alone should allow the US to support, Laser, Keel Boat, Dinghy, Windsufer for 8 events that are gender equal and match what US sailors want and actually sail.
So... two events left, three types of sailing... Finn's, 49ners and Tornado's. What argument do you make to the US powers' that be? If you generalize... Heavy single person dinghy (finn + ???) .. skiff (29ner and 49ner) and cats (Tornado to Hobie 16) I would think the participation numbers are overwhelming in our favor.
I would also have a tally of US cat sailors that competed at their respective worlds. Again, I bet we stack up favorably.
I just dont' see how you persuade the US Sailing powers (If the decision gets reopened) without drawing sharp and distinct contrasts which counter the bias demonstrated by Bodie and Brenner.
Mark
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#126719 12/21/07 05:39 PM 12/21/07 05:39 PM |
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa Don_Atchley
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Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa | What I read into John's statement was a philosophy of taking the high road and promoting our choice. It is implied that you are knocking the other classes. But it's a more noble road than mud-slinging. Nobody gets hurt feelings and the discussion is more likely to be a positive one. You'd have no reason to take it personally. Everyone is only addressing why their class is great. Then like John said, you just let the process go to work. And accept their decision. Hobie Tiger 2003 | | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: Don_Atchley]
#126721 12/21/07 06:04 PM 12/21/07 06:04 PM |
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA windswept
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Posts: 613 New Hampshire, USA | I am on John's side on the issue of attacking any class. The reality is that lowers the person doing the attacking to the same rut in the road the others are slithering through. With that stated, one can make the arguement that the slate of events ended with six dinghy classes filling the ten possible slots for the games. It is here that you can attack. You are not singling out one class, but looking at the entire slate of events and stating that it is extremely unbalanced and that it does not justly represent the sailing world and community. Beyond this, what is needed is a unified position to speak from and the strength from numbers that you get with a unified body. So we need to decide how we want to state our arguement, what our focus should be and then plan our attack accordingly.
Last edited by windswept; 12/21/07 06:05 PM.
Tom Siders A-Cat USA-79 Tornado US775
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: windswept]
#126722 12/21/07 07:34 PM 12/21/07 07:34 PM |
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 124 offshore peter_nelson
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Posts: 124 offshore | John -- Another possible strategy you may or may not have considered is this...
It sounds like working on the national front with US SAILING can be and should be part of a long-term solution. But if some/many in the delegation believe we are already on the right path, then expecting short-term miracles may be futile and frustrating.
If New Zealand and England and other nationalities already have the ball rolling, I wonder if US multihull sailors could come alongside and support those efforts for the immediate future. All the while, we could continue to work on the US delegation so if/when a multihull proposal is reconsidered, our delegation will view it in a more favorable light.
Time Warp Racing Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
| | | Re: Olympics: Yachting NZ change their position
[Re: windswept]
#126723 12/21/07 10:12 PM 12/21/07 10:12 PM |
Joined: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,307 Asuncion, Paraguay Luiz
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...one can make the arguement that the slate of events ended with six dinghy classes filling the ten possible slots for the games. It is here that you can attack. You are not singling out one class, but looking at the entire slate of events and stating that it is extremely unbalanced and that it does not justly represent the sailing world and community.
Correct. I believe that, at least in the media, a consensus already exists about ISAF's final equipment choice being far from ideal. Our position is that we are concerned about the proper representation of sailing in the games. Our case is that at least one important type of boat isn't there when it should be, for a number of reasons. We must not target any secific class to be replaced simply because this is not our primary problem, just a natural consequence of its rational solution.
Luiz
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