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Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: jwrobie] #12736
11/07/02 07:50 PM
11/07/02 07:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 116
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Al Schuster Offline
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Al Schuster  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 116
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
We had our first pitch pole on the Tornado a week after the ice went out, and let me tell you, your brain starts to function poorly immediately. (we were both wearing full wetsuits, outside temp was upper 60's F) It took great concentration to focus on the task at hand and not panic; and we were on a lake, and in no real danger since my dad was following in the powerboat. The panic factor would definitely come into play out on the ocean by yourself. Up in Northern Alberta we put the boat away a long time ago, so keep up the posts (with pictures, preferably) so we can live vicariously through you.
Take care.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: jwrobie] #12737
11/07/02 08:47 PM
11/07/02 08:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 43
Falmouth, MA, USA
RTodd Offline
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RTodd  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 43
Falmouth, MA, USA
Jonathan,

During the winter series, CSC does not race in fleets since there aren't enough boats to constitute a fleet. Instead, they race on Portsmouth ratings. Your P16 has almost the same rating as an Isotope with two people, or a slightly higher rating than an Isotope sailed single-handed. Even though the races aren't just cat races, they are a great way to get started racing in a less formal setting. Hope to see you out there.


Robert Todd
Capricorn F18 #151
Falmouth, MA
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: jwrobie] #12738
11/07/02 09:11 PM
11/07/02 09:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
I'm kind of suprised more of you haven't chose dry suits over wet suits. Wet suits work great in the water but the idea is to stay out of the water. I admit for around here I have a full length farmer john and I'll layer under a Stohlquist Gore-Tex top. The lowest water temp I can remember around here is 58'.

Mike


Have Fun
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: RTodd] #12739
11/07/02 09:19 PM
11/07/02 09:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 215
Durham, North Carolina
jwrobie Offline OP
enthusiast
jwrobie  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Durham, North Carolina
I imagine an Isotope has a LOT more sail area, doesn't it? So in light wind, it should be a lot faster? And an Isotope has boards to make steering easier.

Jonathan

Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: catman] #12740
11/07/02 09:31 PM
11/07/02 09:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 364
Andrew Offline
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Andrew  Offline
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Posts: 364
I'm with you there, Mike. Here in South Texas, the water will get down to 57 or so in January in the inland lakes, and that's VERY uncomfortable without protection. I wear a shorty wetsuit with spray top, and my lower legs will be noticeably blue after ten or fifteen minutes in the water. Obviously, no singlehanding of the Prindle in those conditions!


Andrew Tatton Nacra 20 "Wiggle Stick" #266 Nacra 18 Square #12
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: jwrobie] #12741
11/07/02 10:27 PM
11/07/02 10:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 164
The Netherlands (North West Eu...
RobLammerts Offline
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RobLammerts  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 164
The Netherlands (North West Eu...
I would suggest a Flexible dry suit like the one below from Magic Marine,
It will help you through the Winter.
Also be sure to use some head protection.
And like others have said before, NEVER go out there alone on a winter day

[Linked Image]

THERMO DRY-SUIT (Neoprene)

Glued and blind stitched construction
All seams are double taped
Mesh 3 mm SL 500 neoprene
Titanium coating for 20 % nylon seat-part and knee patches
Fully double lined neoprene for extra strength
Reinforced seatpart, elbows and knees
Horizontal flexible dry zipper
Metalite glide skin neoprene seals (for long life and comfortable to wear)
Velcro ankle straps ENERGY DRY-SUIT

Made of strong and comfortable breathable Nylon
BDM zipper covered with zipper cover
Double extra heavy duty Oxford nylon seatpart and knee patches
Latex-seals covered with neoprene covers for UV protection.Suspender inside



Rob Nacra 6.0 European version Nr 090 + Spi
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: jwrobie] #12742
11/09/02 09:49 PM
11/09/02 09:49 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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Posts: 3,114
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I almost became a statistic today.... I was sailing my H17 downwind, when the wind shifted 45 degrees and increased to about 25mph.... boom hit the head, caused the tiller hard over, and so did the boat. Water was damn cold. Couldn't right the boat, had to wait till I drifted to shore and even then, my buddies had to come over and help me lift it because I was sapped of energy.

Learning experiences tend to be rough like that I suppose.

Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: MauganN20] #12743
11/10/02 12:49 PM
11/10/02 12:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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hobiegary  Offline
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Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
This kind of sailing calls for a helmet and warmer clothing; not to mention


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: hobiegary] #12744
11/10/02 03:56 PM
11/10/02 03:56 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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No doubt.

I went to a different lake today, went out, and had to do a few gybes to get my confidence back up. After the second one, it was fun again

Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: MauganN20] #12745
11/11/02 10:02 AM
11/11/02 10:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
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Kevin Rose  Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Makes me appreciate the boomless main on my 6.0

Even cool water (50-60 degrees) can sap the energy quickly. Although it may take a while for hypothermia to set it, etc., it only takes minutes (or seconds when the water is colder) to lose the dexterity and energy to perform the tasks of capsize recovery. Glad that the story had a happy ending.

Cheers,


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: Kevin Rose] #12746
11/11/02 10:09 AM
11/11/02 10:09 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 3,114
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well the cold water factor is compounded by the fact that I'm a type I diabetic. I don't get very cold usually, but when I jumped in the water to point the bows in the right direction, it was like someone kicked me in the solar plexus with a steel-toed boot.

BTW, I would have NEVER gone out there if my buddies in the Scot weren't out there as well. It would have been a different story if I knew I could right the boat, but this was the first capsize.

Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: MauganN20] #12747
11/11/02 11:02 AM
11/11/02 11:02 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 215
Durham, North Carolina
jwrobie Offline OP
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jwrobie  Offline OP
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Durham, North Carolina
I'm very glad to be reading this in your own words, instead of in the newspaper.

Jonathan

Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: MauganN20] #12748
11/11/02 11:53 AM
11/11/02 11:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
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Kevin Rose  Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
While I usually put my cat away in early November, I paddle my sea kayak year-round. Much of my experience with cold water comes from that sport. (I also teach a one-day class on the topic each spring to area paddlers. It involves on-the-water practice in conditions where the water temp is 35-40 degrees - out in front of the local Coast Guard station.)

Much of my experience translates to any activity on cold water. With that in mind, I thought I'd post a copy of a story I'd once written for our local paddler's forum:

[color:"#666666"]In the days when Lake Champlain used to freeze over, "ice-out" day was a much anticipated event. From my office window I could scan the lake with binoculars, searching for signs of open water. With a good wind, the break-up happens quickly. Suddenly the deep blue waters appear from beneath the winter freeze, my cue to head for the launch. Such was the case on March 29th, 1996. At 2 o'clock in the afternoon the ice cleared from Burlington Harbor. I slipped quietly out of my office, hurried home, dressed for paddling, and was off to Perkins Pier.

It felt good to be on the water, but the lake still bristled with ice. Heading south, I was turned back at the entrance to Shelburne Bay. It was still packed with ice. I paddled along its edge for a few moments, then pointed my bow back toward the Burlington skyline. In the distance, a flash of yellow caught my eye, another paddler was headed my way. I turned toward him. When I was about a quarter mile away, a strange thing happened. The other kayak turned over. I couldn't believe my eyes. "Why would he do that?" I thought. "Testing a new drysuit, perhaps?"

The paddler didn't roll up. The next thing I saw was the panicked response of someone who'd just been immersed in 35 degree water. He tried lunging out of the icy liquid and clambering on top of the overturned hull. It didn't work. He slid off the slick polyethylene, back into the frigid lake. By then, I was in an all-out sprint, terrified by what was unfolding in front of me.

After sliding back into the water, the paddler momentarily let go of the boat. Although the wind was only at about 7 to 10 knots out of the north, it quickly blew the kayak out of reach. It was then that I was close enough to see that the man was not wearing a life jacket. He tried to swim after his boat, but was only able to take a few strokes before being overcome by the cold water. In less than a minute, he was unable to move at all and his body began settling lower in the water.

At a six knot sprint pace, it took me only about two and a half minutes to cover the quarter mile that separated us. By then, the man had lost all ability to help himself. As I drew close, he was motionless in the water. Only his mouth, nose, and eyes were exposed to the air, his face tilted up, struggling to breath. During my final strokes, a nightmare vision ran through my mind, seeing the man slip beneath the water and disappear.

I fully expected to have to swim with him. His boat was gone and he was wearing nothing more than jeans and sneakers. (He had removed the heavy cotton sweatshirt - when the boat blew away - apparently thinking that it was weighing him down.) All I could think was, "Grab hold of him. Don't let him sink."

Skidding to a stop on a low brace, holding the paddle with one hand across the **** combing, I thrust my other hand into the water and miraculously grabbed him by the belt and yanked upward. There was no struggle on his part (nor any help) just a body rendered motionless by a brief few minutes in cold water. I hauled him onto the deck, struggling to avoid capsizing, yet fully prepared for a swim if the situation necessitated it.

We were only a couple hundred yards from shore, but it was a struggle to paddle the distance while trying to keep his body on my deck. His legs still dangled helplessly off my starboard gunwale, his chest on the deck and head at the water's surface on the port side. Every few strokes I had to stop and pull him back onto the deck. When we reached shore, I hauled him onto the rocks at Oakledge Park. The sun shone warmly on the rocks and others in the park enjoyed the Spring sunshine wearing only T-shirts. The man lived in one of the condos adjacent to the park, where he spent the remainder of the afternoon warming and reflecting on what had happened.

After recovering his boat and soggy sweatshirt from the lake, I quickly paddled back to the Perkins Pier launch to pick up my kids from daycare. I hadn't taken the time to get the man's name, but often wondered how he'd fared. A few weeks later, my wife, Michele, and I were unloading our kayaks at Oakledge. A man came jogging toward us on the road. As he got close, I told Michele, "That's him!" He ran to me to offer his thanks a happy ending to that frightful experience a few weeks ago. Thankful that a tragedy had been averted, he told me that the boat had been a mid-winter purchase. He couldn't wait to try it out. While attempting to turn the boat, his blade dove, upsetting the boat and resulting in the capsize. He told me of how rapidly the cold water had transformed his otherwise fit, youthful body into useless limbs. He told me that he was terrified by how he had quickly lost the ability to help himself.

Apparently he never saw me coming. Until my face appeared above him and I had a grip on his belt, he had seen his fate as death in the icy grip of Lake Champlain's early season waters.

On that late March day in 1996, one paddler narrowly avoided a tragic end, but there are too many other situations that do not share the same outcome. You'll hear it again and again from experienced paddlers, "Cold water kills." Plain and simple.

Next time you head to the lake, leave the boat on the car for a moment. Go to the shore and dive in. Swim around for a bit. Then, confident that you are dressed for immersion, go back, get your boat, and have a blast! [/color]


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: Kevin Rose] #12749
11/11/02 02:05 PM
11/11/02 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
old hand
hobiegary  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
Kevin,

That is an incredible story. I shivered as I read it. Nice to see one with a good ending for a change.

Congratulations on saving a life!



Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: How cold is too cold? [Re: hobiegary] #12750
11/11/02 05:41 PM
11/11/02 05:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
K
Kevin Rose Offline
enthusiast
Kevin Rose  Offline
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K

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 397
Burlington, Vermont USA
Gary,

An interesting follow-up to that story is that I hadn't seen the guy since then. Then, when I posted the story on the paddler's forum, I got an email from him. He's living in Oregon now. He wanted to tell me that he's getting married and that his fiance was grateful for the outcome on that afternoon in '96. He did, however, tell me that he almost died twice that day. Once in the fridgid waters of Lake Champlain, then again once his girlfriend (now fiance) almost killed him for being so foolish.


Kevin Rose N6.0na #215 Lake Champlain (New England's "west coast") Burlington, Vermont
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