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Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Wouter] #127660
01/05/08 09:30 AM
01/05/08 09:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
Quote
First of all the Tiger is an F18 and not a Hobie OD class, always has been so


Wrong again, Wout. Tigers were designed to be F-18 compliant, but they have also been their own OD class since the beginning. In fact, they are a ISAF International Class, separate and a apart from the F-18.

Back to a comment that Mark made re: leaders.

The Hobie Class of North America represents all active Hobie One-Design classes in our region. That includes Bravo, Wave, 14, 14T, 16, Getaway, 17, FX-One, 18, Tiger and 20. (There is a separate class association for the Wave with different class rules - that is a can of worms best not opened on this forum.) The strength of the Hobie Class isn't that there's just one leader - there are many:

Bob Merrick
Chris Wessels
John Mork
Rich McVeigh
Paul Ulibarri
Lori Mohney
. . . and the list goes on and on.

The bottom line is - what have YOU done for YOUR class lately?

(Other than whine about the Hobie One-Design policy on an Internet forum?)

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mbounds] #127661
01/05/08 09:41 AM
01/05/08 09:41 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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West coast of Norway
Quote
(Other than whine about the Hobie One-Design policy on an Internet forum?)


And that parthian shot is supposed to quiet things down and make readers accept the rest of your statement? It takes two to keep an argument going.

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Wouter] #127662
01/05/08 09:44 AM
01/05/08 09:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
I don't think anyone would argue that we need some distillation of the class'. Just my opinion but I think everything needs to gradually work towards formula class's. I don't think there will be much of a resurgence of 14 foot cats, (except for perhaps youth models), so that really leaves us with Acat,F16, F18, F20, Tornado. And I'm hoping for a F17 class as well. The manufactures can build what they want to fit some simple rules. Chances are the H16 will out last most of us. You still have room for one design sailing.

Maybe the approach would be to allow Formula class boats at Hobie OD regatta's but just not have it count for points to a championship? You could win the battle just not the war? I'm just throwing out ideas.

Continuity works in just about every other type of non-handicapped racing from bikes to cars to aircraft. Almost everyracing class is limited to physicall dimensions and engine displacement. The formula class's do basically the same thing. The down side of one design racing is that it gives you the illusion that it is a totally level playing field. Someone will always have better equipment, or a better setup plus you still have to operate it well. I'm sure that cat sailing would have the same result. X brand boat is better at this, Y brand boat is better at that.


Quote
Anybody else wonder why the FX-one is being upstaged the world over by a bunch of amateurs on F16's ?


I do?!!

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127663
01/05/08 09:47 AM
01/05/08 09:47 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Karl,

we have discussed just that approach here in Norway. We took it as far as considering having only three classes. 16footer, 28 footer and 60 footer. The tought have some merit in my opinion.

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #127664
01/05/08 10:02 AM
01/05/08 10:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Don't get me wrong. I race OD. And at the moment I race OD against myself because I have the first of my class in my area. But I do like one design, but I also like the idea of formula racing. My first exposure to handicap racing wasn't very pleasant. Twice I got really good position for starts, and twice I was headed up by more modern boats that could point substantially higher. Plus being in my 2nd year racing it was borderline scary having I-20's, F18's, and other spin boats come up from behind at nearly twice the speed downwind. That is my major complaint. But now I have a boat that points like crazy with a chute. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I'm boatless.
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127665
01/05/08 11:15 AM
01/05/08 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
mike220 Offline
member
mike220  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
Hey Karl dont you like seeing all those guys mentioned by Wouter, <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote
"Anybody else wonder why the FX-one is being upstaged the world over by a bunch of amateurs on F16's ?", Wouter.


They must just be breathing down your neck, Karl. The world over, HAHAHAHAHA. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
It is you and me and a couple others so far here, and i have never seen a F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Mike Hensel
Hobie Tiger
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mbounds] #127666
01/05/08 12:59 PM
01/05/08 12:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Read my statements again Matt.

Actually the Tiger started out as the Alado F18 and was designed by a company unrelated to Hobie. Hobie bought the building rights and Hobienized it, renaming it the Tiger. At that time it was still a F18. Then Hobie corp decided to dilute the F18 class by forming a OD Tiger class as well.

Something Hobie (crowd) always claims other builders are doing, but they have done more often themselves.

To make things worse the Tiger never remained a True OD as each 1 or 2 years the Tiger rules would be adjusted to allow any new devellopment that occured in the F18 class. The famous st, stx, new rudders, selftacker, snuffer, etc issues.

The Tiger class has always been an OD class IN NAME ONLY.

And who gives a ^&@#(# about ISAF recognation anyway these days. Another paper tiger thing if you ask me.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mike220] #127667
01/05/08 01:07 PM
01/05/08 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

It is you and me and a couple others so far here, and i have never seen a F16



Ahhh, but that was because you were simply not good enough to qualify for the Alter Cup 2007 event.

Come back when hobie has suppled 11 FX-ones for some future Alter Cup.

Hell, come back when the FX-one's have held their very first official US OD event even. And please do have more then 3 boats attending.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Wouter] #127668
01/05/08 02:36 PM
01/05/08 02:36 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
"Ask not what Sailing can do for you, but what YOU can do for Sailing"

Actions speak louder that words.

North American Hobie Class Association Division 4 2008 Tentative Division 4 Regattas






TENTATIVE ( updated 12/27/07 )

Date
Event
Location
Type

Jan 12
HOBIE CAT REGATTA
Lake Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail

Jan 18-21
Youth Multi Champ
Long Beach, Ca, Ca
US Sailing

February
Penguin 1
Sail Sand Point
Fun Sail

March
Penguin 2
Sail Sand Point
Fun Sail

April 4, 5, 6
Potholes Warm Up
Potholes Reservoir
Fun sail/Open

April 22-26
Alter Cup
Gulfport, Fl, Fl
US Sailing

April 26, 27
Flights of Spring
Jericho, Vancouver BC
Open

May 3
Fast and Fun
Kirkland, Wa,
Waves

May 10
Hobie 101
Sail Sand Point
Hobie

May 24, 25
Splash
Sail Sand Point
Hobie Points

May 31, June 1
Live on the Edge
Fern Ridge, Eugene
Open Multi

June 5-8
Canadian Grand Prix
Comox, BC,
Open

June 13, 14
Hobie Cat Distance
Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail

June 21, 22
Jericho
Vancouver, BC,
Hobie Points

July 12, 13
Kits Invitational
Vancouver, BC,
Open

July 12, 13
Sudden Valley
Lake Whatcom, Wa., .
Hobie Points

July 19, 20
Oak Harbor
Oak Harbor, Whidby
Hobie Points

July 26,27
Summer Celebration
Sail Sand Point
Waves/H16 Youth

August 2, 3
Quinault
Lake Quinault, Wa., .
Hobie Points

August 9, 10
Skamokawa
Skamokawa, Wa., .
Hobie Points

August 9,10,11
HOBIE ISLAND SAILING ADVENTURE
Coeur d'Alene River Swan Lake


August 23, 24
Harrison
Harrison Hot Springs, BC
Hobie Points

August 25-29
Nationals 17/18/Tiger
Harrison Hot Springs, BC
Hobie Points

Sept 6, 7
Chelan Annual Regatta
Chelan, Wa.
Open

Sept 5-12
Hobie 16 NA
Clear Lake, Iowa
Hobie Points




Sept 20, 21
BBOD
Bellingham Bay
Open

Sept 20, 21
Alter Cup Qualifier
BYC, Bellingham Bay
US Sailing

Oct 18, 19
Pumkin Bowl
Vancouver, BC,
Open

Nov 1, 2
Bluenose
Vancouver, BC,
Open






APRIL-OCT., 2008
110 "HOBIE WAVE BASIC LEARN-TO-SAIL COURSES
Lake Coeur d'Alene
Fun Sail



























<>





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Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: H17cat] #127669
01/05/08 03:06 PM
01/05/08 03:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider] #127670
01/05/08 04:18 PM
01/05/08 04:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
T
tshan Offline
old hand
tshan  Offline
old hand
T

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121
Eastern NC, USA
Quote

Hobie 17
Hobie 20
Nacra 20 ???
Nacra F17 ???
F16???

I did not know and I could not find a name for any of these US classes either. Somebody is making stuff happen.. so there must be some leadership.


Actually, some of those classes contacts are listed at the USSailing.org website under

http://www.ussailing.org/odcc/classresults.asp

You must not have looked too hard.


Tom
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rhino1302] #127671
01/05/08 04:24 PM
01/05/08 04:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
Quote
H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?


The Hobie class has about ten years of credit to use up before anyone should even think of being embarrased.

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Wouter] #127672
01/05/08 05:50 PM
01/05/08 05:50 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote

Another paper tiger thing if you ask me.


Hey leave the PT out of this! And choose your figures of speech more carefully <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rhino1302] #127673
01/05/08 06:20 PM
01/05/08 06:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
mike220 Offline
member
mike220  Offline
member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 118
Sail Sand Point, Seattle
In the list Caleb sited there are 25 events that are proposed for the Northwest. This is the Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Brittish Columbia area. All usually within a 3-5 hour drive for most folks.

Of those,
8 are Hobie Points
6 are put on by Yacht Clubs
3 are organized by sailing centers
7 are non hobie points events oganized by hobie members
1 US Sailing Alter Qualifier

The majority of the events are organized by the cat sailors here who happen to be in division 4.
So i would say the local sailors in the area Caleb is talking about are doing all that they can to increase cat sailing in general.


And of those events listed four are focused as youth events.
Potholes Warm Up- youth fun sail
Hobie 101-Hobie Seminar and a Youth Clinc
Summer Celebration- Youth Only Regatta
Oktoberfest- Youth Only Regatta

I think we have to see this as moving forward.


Mike Hensel
Hobie Tiger
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: H17cat] #127674
01/05/08 07:08 PM
01/05/08 07:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
While we're listing the 16 NAC's in Clear Lake, Iowa, let's list the 20 Nationals in Yankton, South Dakota
2008 H20 NAC NOR


John H16, H14
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127675
01/05/08 08:44 PM
01/05/08 08:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
I'm embarassed for anyone ignorant enough to call out Caleb. Unbelieveable...

Anyway, back to the original point of the thread, wasn't the original question something along the lines of: How is it that the Hobie 16 class is the only cat class on the list?

When you look at it that way, whether HCA helps ANOTHER cat class or not is really not the issue, is it? If your boats and organizations are so much better, why aren't they on the list? Year after year we hear these claims and complaints, and year after year our numbers thrive and others don't. Are we perfect? Of course not, but it seems pretty obvious which organization works.

Mike

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: brucat] #127676
01/05/08 08:53 PM
01/05/08 08:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Quote
but it seems pretty obvious which organization works.


Hey now! Don't be dragging trivial things like the success's of the HCA into this discussion!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: brucat] #127677
01/05/08 09:19 PM
01/05/08 09:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Quote
Anyway, back to the original point of the thread, wasn't the original question something along the lines of: How is it that the Hobie 16 class is the only cat class on the list?
OK, and this has been discussed before but...let's look at the successes of the other classes on the list, disregarding they are not cats.

Thistle for one. Check out their web site Thistle Class Association click on the contacts, and fleet listings, there's LOTS of names available for contact. I've crewed and helmed a Thistle last summer and I wasn't impressed with its performance, it's NOT an exciting boat. There are only 4,000 of them in existence yet must be 80 or 90% of them are being raced. Results? Big fleets. Regardless of the boat, big fleets are exciting. The Thistle guys love to take our H16 for a spin and are very open minded and inquisitive about cats. They have their other "toys", 5o5, Lasers, but they race Thistles. They've also chosen another, less expensive, "class" boat to boost membership in our club, Flying Scot. Big established fleets in our area.

Pardon me for being a broken record but, the 18 is the boat I like, 20 is the boat we race. The average fleet size of regattas we raced this year was probably 11 to 12 boats. Had to travel a quite a few miles to get there, but it was worth the trip. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127678
01/05/08 10:53 PM
01/05/08 10:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
1) H16 58.00
2) H20 29.33
3) H17 27.33
4) H14 22.00
5) F18 help...what are the results for '06? '05=20 '07=22?
6) Wave - no updates after '04
7) TheMightyHobie18 16.33
8) F17 14.33
9) N20 10.00
10) missing a Cat class?

No jabs, but it was difficult to get other than Hobie info, double check the Performance numbers.

Last edited by flatlander18; 01/05/08 10:54 PM.

John H16, H14
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rhino1302] #127679
01/05/08 11:53 PM
01/05/08 11:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
enthusiast
Don_Atchley  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Quote
H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?


This is just plain ignorance!

Meaning, that I'm not calling you stupid. Just that you don't have your facts straight.

When did supporting an event held at a Yacht Club become leaching?
I sure don't feel like I'm leaching when I hand them my check.
I look at this as a win-win. It provides more both sides the opportunity to educate themselves. The multihulls get to see and interact with a club. The monohulls get to see a cat's speed and meet the sailors.
Wow, that's just crazy. Almost as crazy as the ski resorts allowing snowboarders to pay for a lift ticket. Damn those snowboarders. Leeching off the ski resorts.

We're operating under the premise that what's good for the sport will be good for our choice of boat too. Which just happens to be a Hobie. The focus is on outside exposure and youth particapation.


Hobie Tiger 2003
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