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Rivet Size #127710
01/03/08 03:35 PM
01/03/08 03:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 291
J
JACKFLASH Offline OP
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JACKFLASH  Offline OP
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I got a low cost Tiger mast for my 18SX <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but I have to reattach all of the hounds, tangs etc. I found a company that offers closed end blind rivets that are suppose to eliminate water seapage into the mast. My question is rather to use 1/4 or 3/8 inch long rivets. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Collin


Collin Casey
Infusion Platform + C2 rig and rags = one fast cookie
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Re: Rivet Size [Re: JACKFLASH] #127711
01/03/08 03:44 PM
01/03/08 03:44 PM
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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I would use 3/8 but make sure you use Monel and also the little "top hat" insulators.

Lee


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Rivet Size [Re: JACKFLASH] #127712
01/03/08 06:57 PM
01/03/08 06:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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I second the 3/8...A short rivet won't work in a long hole...but a long rivet (within reason) will work in a short hole.

"hat"? What's that? If the cherry rivets are sealed, why use the hat?


Jake Kohl
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Jake] #127713
01/03/08 10:38 PM
01/03/08 10:38 PM
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Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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Ok, I'm a little lost now. I know monel, but top hats and cherries lose me. I want to move the spin bail up the Riba (carbon) mast, what's the appropriate rivet for that? Source for the rivets? Thanks!

Dave

Re: Rivet Size [Re: davefarmer] #127714
01/04/08 11:26 AM
01/04/08 11:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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You need to be cautious using rivets in carbon. The compression & expansion force can lead to cracking of the laminate around the hole. Drilling & tapping for a suitable sized machine bolt works quite well in even thin carbon. I use thickened epoxy in the tapped hole and around the base of the fitting for extra insurance.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Jake] #127715
01/04/08 11:51 AM
01/04/08 11:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Jake,

The "Top Hat" is an insulator that slows down electrolysis on the mast. You should use them on the mast regardless of sealed rivets or not.

Lee


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Tornado] #127716
01/04/08 01:13 PM
01/04/08 01:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
You need to be cautious using rivets in carbon. The compression & expansion force can lead to cracking of the laminate around the hole. Drilling & tapping for a suitable sized machine bolt works quite well in even thin carbon. I use thickened epoxy in the tapped hole and around the base of the fitting for extra insurance.


Tiger mast is aluminum.

are the hats plastic?


Jake Kohl
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Jake] #127717
01/04/08 03:54 PM
01/04/08 03:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Tornado  Offline
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Jake,

I was replying to Dave's post re. his carbon mast on the HT.

Quote
Quote
You need to be cautious using rivets in carbon. The compression & expansion force can lead to cracking of the laminate around the hole. Drilling & tapping for a suitable sized machine bolt works quite well in even thin carbon. I use thickened epoxy in the tapped hole and around the base of the fitting for extra insurance.


Tiger mast is aluminum.

are the hats plastic?


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Tornado] #127718
01/04/08 08:33 PM
01/04/08 08:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Quote
Jake,

I was replying to Dave's post re. his carbon mast on the HT.

Quote
Quote
You need to be cautious using rivets in carbon. The compression & expansion force can lead to cracking of the laminate around the hole. Drilling & tapping for a suitable sized machine bolt works quite well in even thin carbon. I use thickened epoxy in the tapped hole and around the base of the fitting for extra insurance.


Tiger mast is aluminum.

are the hats plastic?


Ahaaha...skimming bites me again.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rivet Size [Re: TeamChums] #127719
01/05/08 01:08 AM
01/05/08 01:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
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maui
hope you don't mind if i ask about some of these details.
what's the advantage of monel over stainless rivets? got a picture of a cap?
do most agree that you can drill and tap a carbon mast to hold a mast tang? i've been wondering how they rivet parts on the nacra carbon masts. it seems like the rivet ball would just pull right thru the hole in the carbon.
thanks

Re: Rivet Size [Re: jollyrodgers] #127720
01/05/08 03:17 AM
01/05/08 03:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Hi All

I don't know a lot about the monel v stainless rivets, but I'm sure that the monel rivets are strong enough, its what Goodalls use and recommend, and they are a hell of lot easier to drill out, if need be, more drill bit friendly.

I worked casually at the fibreglass factory when I was younger, and they used rivets there when making water tanks, when they popped they split out into 4 sections and set like a anchor, I don't know if something like that could work with carbon masts, they were stainless steel.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Tornado] #127721
01/05/08 11:06 AM
01/05/08 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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Thanks Mike, I wondered about the possibility of rivets damaging the mast or pulling thru. Although the bail is currently riveted on. I like the drill and tap idea, seems I could suspend the mast horizontally, poke some epoxy up into the hole, run the screws in, and with luck the epoxy could settle around the threads, increasing the contact area.
I've also considered replacing the ss bail with a loop of Vectran from mast track to mast track, any thoughts?

Dave

Re: Rivet Size [Re: jollyrodgers] #127722
01/05/08 01:44 PM
01/05/08 01:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Monel is between stainless and aluminum in strength but it is usually chosen because it is slightly lower on the galvanic scale...which means it will have slightly less of a corrosive action on aluminum. It is quite a bit more expensive than stainless steel.

Personally, I feel that the difference between a stainless rivet and a monel rivet aren't worth the difficulty in finding (and buying) the monel. However, Monel doesn't apply quite as much compressive pressure on the components being riveted - so in the case of riveting composites, I would go monel.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rivet Size [Re: mattaipan] #127723
01/05/08 01:47 PM
01/05/08 01:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Quote
Hi All

I don't know a lot about the monel v stainless rivets, but I'm sure that the monel rivets are strong enough, its what Goodalls use and recommend, and they are a hell of lot easier to drill out, if need be, more drill bit friendly.

I worked casually at the fibreglass factory when I was younger, and they used rivets there when making water tanks, when they popped they split out into 4 sections and set like a anchor, I don't know if something like that could work with carbon masts, they were stainless steel.

Regards


Those are bulb rivets or peel rivets - used for fastening brittle or soft materials together.

I replaced the tang on the Team Seacats I20 carbon mast and used the factory sealed rivets (Monel I believe). I was careful to not heat up the carbon when drilling out the original rivets by keeping a small stream of water on the rivet head I was drilling. Installation went very easily - I would really be hesitant to tap carbon and install a screw.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rivet Size [Re: davefarmer] #127724
01/05/08 04:11 PM
01/05/08 04:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Since the loading on the bail is nearly perpendicular to the bolts, all the loading is in shear. Therefore the threads in the carbon are taking a low loading, so tapping and bolting for the bail are not a big concern. Yes, adding some epoxy (I like to thicken it with high density filler in this type of application) will help.

Using a bit of line does work for a bail...but I would not select Vectran as it does chaff (spin halyard strop rubs back & forth on the bail while loaded) and is more UV sensitive than Spectra (like Amsteel...I find it best for good chaff resistance).
The best way to install a line for the bail is to drill 4 holes, 2 per side, vertically spaced about 1" apart on the track. The holes Either the top pair or bottom pair should be about where you want the bail to locate. Pass the line through one hole and fish it through the adjacent hole on the same side of the track. Tie a stopper knot on the end you just passed out the hole. Run the loose end around the front of the mast and repeat the line feed through the two holes, tying off another stopper on the final end. You will now have a bail loop on the front of the mast without drilling holes in the sealed section of the mast. Plus, no knots inside the sail track to foul the mainsail bolt rope. Also very easy to replace the line when needed.

I used to run a line bail on my Alu Tmast. The Carbon mast for the T has a stainless bail installed. So, I run amsteel for the strop and further protect it from wear by wrapping it with UHMW plastic tape.

Mike.

Quote
Thanks Mike, I wondered about the possibility of rivets damaging the mast or pulling thru. Although the bail is currently riveted on. I like the drill and tap idea, seems I could suspend the mast horizontally, poke some epoxy up into the hole, run the screws in, and with luck the epoxy could settle around the threads, increasing the contact area.
I've also considered replacing the ss bail with a loop of Vectran from mast track to mast track, any thoughts?

Dave

Last edited by Tornado; 01/05/08 04:21 PM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Tornado] #127725
01/05/08 05:07 PM
01/05/08 05:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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Thanks Mike! By strop, are you refering to the line from the top of the mast that supports the hlyd blk? Which blk would you recommend there(assuming a hlyd tapered to 1/8")? How are you attaching the strop to the mast? So which bail would you recommend, move the ss one already on the mast, or go with the Amsteel?

Dave

Re: Rivet Size [Re: davefarmer] #127726
01/05/08 09:32 PM
01/05/08 09:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
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This is a "top hat." It's available from Murray's.
[Linked Image]


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Re: Rivet Size [Re: davefarmer] #127727
01/06/08 11:34 AM
01/06/08 11:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Yes, the line from above that runs under the bail and ends with the halyard block.

The strop is anchored to the mast using an eye strap less than 1/2 the distance to mast top. The strap on the alu mast is rivetted. The Carbon mast has an interesting setup...the strap is set so only the eye protrudes out of the mast, the rest is inside. Looks like they ground out a small section, passed the strap into the mast so that only the ends remain inside, rivetted & gobbed it all up with epoxy. Looks very solid...just hope I never need to replace it!

My carbon mast came with a light weight Harken "Ti-Lite" 29mm block fitted. After hearing from other Tdrivers about these blocks blowing up at load (due to the way the strop line is rigged through the block itself...leading to the sides prying apart), I went with a hi-load harken with sheave made for wire line. Pretty much bullet proof, low weight and price.

Personally, I like the stainless bail on the carbon mast...my alu mast had a line bail and I always worried about it wearing out. It never did after 3+ seasons of heavy racing...but the worry never left me :-)



Quote
Thanks Mike! By strop, are you refering to the line from the top of the mast that supports the hlyd blk? Which blk would you recommend there(assuming a hlyd tapered to 1/8")? How are you attaching the strop to the mast? So which bail would you recommend, move the ss one already on the mast, or go with the Amsteel?

Dave

Last edited by Tornado; 01/06/08 11:51 AM.

Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Rivet Size [Re: Tornado] #127728
01/06/08 01:18 PM
01/06/08 01:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline
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So that's the Hkn 300 1" wire blk? Use it at pole tip too? And you've got the blk UNDER the bail? For some reason I was envisioning it above the bail, with the bail corralling the hlyd.
I also ran across some older chat(F18HT and T guys) about the benefits of using the bail vs the hlyd blk being attached directly to a tang on mast centerline, the theory put forth being that the tang kept the head of the spin rotated further to windward. This argument ever get resolved one way or the other?
thanks Mike!

dave

Re: Rivet Size [Re: davefarmer] #127729
01/07/08 01:28 PM
01/07/08 01:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,200
Vancouver, BC
Tornado Offline
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Strop under the bail with block below. All top Tboats are rigged this way.

Eliminating the bail and going with block off the eyestrap will create a rotation force in the mast and a strange twist in the head of the sail if mast is well rotated at or near 90 degrees.


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
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