I don't know about a DPN for the last group of AC boats but I remember watching them sail upwind at about 11 knots and the annoucer saying "They were flying!". I think the fastest they could go downwind was about 15-17kts.

In that type of racing it has always been about tactics, and strategy, not speed, as long as the two boats were pretty close in speed. With Cats, it's going to be much more about boat handling and speed, with some tactics thrown in, especially at the start. I just want to see a monster cat going downwind in 20+ knots of breeze on flat water! How fast do you think they will be? 40kts or more? That will be the exciting part for us cat freaks.

Of course the mono-slug guys will say it's not a tactical race so it's not worthy of the AC event. And then they will go out and buy a cat... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The AC boats were definitely a little off a beach-cat pace...but they were probably pointing a bit higher and running quite deeper. I still think the cat would probably have beat them around the course.

I am not sure but I don't think that your standard beachcat would have a chance against the AC boats. Maybe a C-class or some of the bigger cats but they just point to high to fast to be beat.

I don't know... I spotted a Farr 50, Canvasback 15 minutes on a 15 mile beat in 13 to 16 k Southerly on my Tornado and passed him in the NASS Oxford Race..... I am certainly no rock star.... Bundy would have had me by 30 minutes or more.

It depends a lot on the windspeed... Light air...toasted.. Cat's need enough air to fly a hull... then the race is on.

Wow, are you guys optimistic! There are no mono sailors involved in the AC that are "embracing" or arguably, accepting, that cats are the way to go, either for, or after this event.

They're dealing with it as a matter of the deed challenge, which is a result of the fact that Alinghi and Oracle can't get together in a room and behave like adults for the benefit of all the other countries involved.

As mono sailors, they will look back at this like another black eye in the history of the AC.

Mike

I'm not too sure whether the AC boat points so high when travelling at 11 knots boatspeed and flying that very large overlapping jib.

There is an aerodynamic problem in such conditions that is called angle of attack; as measured between the centerline of the boat and the apparent wind.

Sloop rigged beach cats typically have such an angle of attack that is between 20-25 degrees. These beach cats also have relatively small and narrow jibs (25% of the mainsail area); high aspect jibs also called blade jibs. The AC boat don't have these as their jibs are almost the same size as their mainsails.

For an AC boat to point 30 degrees of the wind and attain 11 knots of boatspeed in 15 knots of wind would require their rigs to operate at 17 degrees angle of attack. A beach cat travelling at 13.5 knots at a 45 degree upwind angle (and 24 degrees angle of attack) would have the exact same VMG.

Now I really don't believe that an AC rig can operate at max efficiency (or drive) when angled to the apparent wind at only 2/3rds of the optimally drawing catamaran rig.

Besides what a shame for the AC, a boat at what 70 ft (?), to have problems with 20 foot beachcats.

Lets compare the AC's boats to the 60 and 70 ft trimarans like groupama.

I see the monohullers reaching for the tissues already.

Wouter

I think Mike/Brucat is absolutely spot on. This will be "just another '88" affair to the monohull sailing community, if they ever get a verdict for multihulls in the court that is.




The western yachting/mono community dont care. They want to sail monos and that is it.


Timbo,
Chris Dickson raced a Tornado in the 2000 games in Sidney. Useless Trivia: The year before the games he sheard the rudders and aft hull of another T at the bottom mark <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Did not do to bad in the games tough, even with a very short lead up to the games. I think the first the team did when the got their boat was to go for an extended cruise along the coast of NZ.

My experience with my A Cat was that I could beat any keeled mono 35' and under upwind inshore, pointing higher and going faster. I never raced against anything bigger than 35' or offshore in my A Cat.

On my RC27, I generally did not point as high as the monos, but very easily beat them to the weather mark. Worst case scenario was under 10 kts upwind in lumpy seas. The One Design 35 never really threatened me on any tack, but I never came close to correcting out with a -60 PHRF rating.

For reference, my RC-27 can do 14 kts upwind, although 11 kts is the best speed I can do upwind in under hull-flying conditions. Once fully powered up with three on the wire we begin to point as high as the monos and the speed differential grows.

Looking at PHRF ratings from Southern California indicates the RC27 should be about on par with a 68'-70' ULDB keel boat. America's Challenge II rates -78 PHRF.

Looks to me like a Volvo 40' would destroy a typical America's Cup keel boat.

Maybe cost will finally rear it's ugly head! Keep the hardware costs down by using a OD, like the Volvo 40. . . and pay the sailors rock star wages!!!!

So...looks like WE had better start planning now for some exciting exhibitions/regattas at venues with good spectator access, with crazy reaching legs, potential crash and burn stuff. Play off the hype of the AC, schedule for August and September of 2009 (immediately after AC), highly advertise and publisize.

After all, the mono guys just don't care, for them the agony will be over and everything will be back to status quo (and we really know "the status quo blows"). Maybe we can pick up the casual observer of the AC just out of curiosity, the X-game type. What better chance of free advertising than the AC on catamarans?

I ran my N20 last year in the Santabarbara to King Harbor race and had to reach pretty high with the chute in light air. I thought we were doing well until I looked back and saw an 80 foot keel boat riding my butt with his chute up as well. First I was amazed at the angle he was running the chute not to mention the speed. As soon as the wind picked up, it was "game on" and we walked away from them.

Lee Wicklund/Team Chums

It finally occured to me last weekend, as I was pulling myself on board for the 3rd time during the Tradewinds Regatta; This is why some people will never sail cats!

So there is always going to be a Monohull mentality, they don't all care about all out speed, but they do care about staying on the boat, right side up! Especially up in places where the water is COLD even in July, like Newport and Boston.

There will always be a (much larger) crowd of Yacht Club Deck Sailors who would rather walk around the club swirling their martinis and "Talking a good race" rather than actually out there doing it. Those are the guys who need the security of a 5,000lb. keel under them and only go out if it's blowing less than 20. They can say, "Look at my pretty yacht, isn't she lovely!" from the safety of the Yacht Club. We cat speed freaks will never convince them that faster is funner.

As to the America's Cup, that is about MONEY. Money for Designers, Builders, Sailmakers, Crew, Skippers, Owners, etc. not really about speed or they'd be doing it on Ice Boats! The entire Monohull Marine Industry wants it to be on monohulls, thus it will always be so. There is no money to be made from speed, especially if you can build a lighter, faster boat at less than half the cost of a typical AC leaner and only need two sails and 5 crew on it. The AC is more like a circus, they need lots of clowns or the show isn't that good. It's about money, not speed.

Can someone put up that link to the Gunbaot 62 cruising cat smoking the R/P 80' racing mono? Now that was funny!

I've sold this guy a couple of Dart 16s over the years. Then he goes off and buys this <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> http://www.safaricharter.com/home.html

Thanks Dermot, that's the one! I love how it just goes blowing by the 80' racing boat at 32 knots, not even spilling their beer! Does your friend need crew?? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I delivered Safari from newport to st maarten a couple of decembers ago. Ice on the deck when we left, 27 kts with a storm jib and 2 reefs through the night and we were by bermuda the next night. Unbelievable speed,very controllable, but going that fast at night 500 miles off shore is scary. Someday I want my own gunboat!

Sounds like a great trip. One of my main memories of the 60' British Airways trip was at night, standing with a arm around a backstay, hanging on, having a pee, and watching the flourescence of the twin wakes stretching out behind the cat.
Tim, This guy from Galway owns that Gunboat and charters it out - I think in the Med for the Summer and the Carribean in the Winter - that was the way the first year anyway. Maybe I should do a deal with him and get an international catsailor.com crew together for a week or so <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah! That would be Great! Med or Carib, either one suits me!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Safari's captain andy is one of the funnest guys you will ever meet. And his wife Melissa is an incredible cook. If you ever get a chance to chart with them do it. They are great people and the boat will blow your mind

That's correct - 2000 in Sydney.