Hi Keith

I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. Keel boats and Power boats are self contained vessels. They offer shelter, a head, fishing platform, swim platform, galley and a place to keep some of your junk. Marina's or botel's are great solutions when you can come down and hop onto your self contained vessel and go boating. People have no problem in paying for this facility if they don't want to trailer a boat. (The power boat launch at Sandy Point is essentially a marina except that you trailer in your self contained vessel and then go boating.) This is very different then cat sailing for recreation.

Notice... i did not say sport.... A sport implies some sort of competition. For that... you need to gather a group of people at some location, organize around some rules and then go play. IE... our regattas.

I believe that families and casual boaters find the undeveloped beach too uncomfortable to be practical. As Mary W noted... Its a me me me versus a we we we orieintation.

You wrote:
I still think that to grow the sport we need to reach out to and bring in new sailors, not try to shift the habits of existing ones. And I'm not sure raising the amount of money required will help unless the image/societal part begins to draw the money crowd.

Well my point is that cat sailing is a great family activity and by not choosing to support family friendly facilites aka yacht clubs in liu of cheap cheap cheap water access we are Not and Never will attract new sailors.

You wrote:
So maybe both approaches offer benefits and drawbacks, but both approaches are in full use for monos and dinghys as well. I wouldn't blame one for keeping the sport down.

I disagree for the reasons just stated and secondly I do not know of a single dinghy sailor or group of sailors who store their boats on undeveloped beaches. They are in clubs or dinghy friendly marinas!

Keit h wrote:
That having been said, I do believe that we need some permanent facilities that cater more to cats around here. But I'm not sure I agree they need to or should be AYC, PPYC, EYC caliber/cost facilities.

In our 5 state region, Podickery, (Deluxe) Rehobath and Potomac PRSA and Spray Beach (Excellent), Sandy Hook (good) and your club WRCSA (spartan) are the availble locations. Obviusly more locations would be helpful in attracting new sailors, simply from the travel to the club perspective.

Final point... I think that your comparison of costs for Fairwinds... a marina with a ramp... and the the costs of keeping your boat at one of the clubs would be about 20 bucks a month difference between them all.!

Take Care
ps... good luck with your rebuilding project!

Mark

Mark, I supect we'll maybe have to agree to disagree a bit...

A lot of the monos/power boats in marinas don't have much for accomodations. Some are trailerable and are in a slip for convenience sake. There's lots of expensive stuff, but there's lots of stuff that ain't much more than a daysailor. My boat fits that bill - it has accomodations, but it's only really usefull comfortably as a daysailor. I've seen dinghies on racks on beachs, and one of my crew races Flying Scotts out of a lot that offers a porta-pottie for amenities (they have a pretty consistent turnout, families too). PWCs launching from Sandy Point, not self-contained.

I'll go out on a limb and say that a sport doesn't necessarily have to involve competition, but that's my take. Going biking, running, rock climbing, hiking, doesn't have to involve a competition, sailing shouldn't either, maybe some would say they're only outdoor activities, I'll call them sports. Growing the sport of sailing to me means getting more people on the water sailing, whether they race or not. Get enough people sailing for fun and more folks might show up for a race. Making it expensive and exclusive may be counterproductive. I know folks that express interest in learning how to sail until they check the prices at sailing schools and for keeping boats. All of my crew (except my wife) learned to sail at the GSFC sailing club - cheap.

As for what my family should do while I sail, well, I prefer that they have the opportunity to go sailing with me, all of us at the same time. I have fond memories of that as a kid, it would be cool to continue the cycle. Maybe a beach cat can provide that. I suspect that's when people consider larger boats, be they monos, power, or some form of larger multi if they can afford it. At that point in life, if I look at a beach cat that can't provide a family experience in the sport of sailing, and it costs just as much as a something else that will, I won't spend the money on the cat first. And I love sailing cats. But I'd rather be on the Bay with my family onboard, not having them sitting at the clubhouse wondering when Dad is coming in. And maybe that will have to be on a powerboat. ;-( Of course, I say this not having kids yet... If it ends up everybody but me hates sailing then adjustments might be made and an upper scale facility will fit the bill.

Yes, the cost for Fairwinds, and even our club (WRCRA), may seem just a hair cheaper if you look strictly at the month cost. But, you have to join the upscale places on a yearly basis if I'm not mistaken, whereas the other places you pay only for the season you're going to sail. It's the difference between $500 and $1400. Pool's mighty cold in January.

We do need more access to water in the Chesapeake. I'd personnally hate to see the access tied up in expensive clubs.

So, I'll still say both fit a need/niche.

Peace.

What is reasonable to pay for membership at a yacht club?
I am a member of the Miami Yacht club (FL), They charge me $80.00 per month, $30.00 of which is funny money redeemable at the bar. Initiation was $300.00. This includes use of the property only. No storage at all. On this months bill I got charged $10.00 for dry slip fees because I left my boat on the property Friday night to get an early start on Saturday morning. To keep my boat at the club is an additional $80.00 per month. I am not a cheap person but I am not wealthy either. Is $160.00 for mast up storage in line with the rest of the country?

I can speak for two marinas [one with a grass beach] in my area that have mast up dry storage with access to a close ramp for about $50 month. I have a wide beam cat and this enables me to put the boat together and either leave it on the trailer or beach. The other lake has a rock shore and no beach around the entire shore but its 12 miles from my house as well as being a constant level lake. Several cats sail out of there but I like the grass beach for cats. Both marinas have full locker rooms with showers, restaurants [one with live entertainment on weekends], security and fences with locked gates, well maintained etc. Dogs and kids rule at both marinas. The yacht clubs are at least double almost triple for the same service.

thom

Well I'm about to bust someones bubble. Here in Louisiana its about as good as it gets. Its not quite as warm as south Fl. in January but its not bad. We have a club that the biggest boats are only about 27-28'. Cost is about $65/quarter (not month) and on site storage is only about $20. Wet slip fees are $75/quarter. The lake is not excessively large but the sailing is good. There is access to other lakes if you want to sail to them. This club is very small boat friendly, cats, dingys, small keel boats. Good facilities too! Just wish I had more time to sail!

Clayton D.
Stiletto 27, Hobie 16

Hi Keith

Yeah... we probably won't agree on this issue. One point and one comment to conclude.
you wrote
A lot of the monos/power boats in marinas don't have much for accomodations. Some are trailerable and are in a slip for convenience sake. There's lots of expensive stuff, but there's lots of stuff that ain't much more than a daysailor. My boat fits that bill - it has accomodations, but it's only really usefull comfortably as a daysailor. I've seen dinghies on racks on beachs, and one of my crew races Flying Scotts out of a lot that offers a porta-pottie for amenities (they have a pretty consistent turnout, families too). PWCs launching from Sandy Point, not self-contained.

My point is that these day sailors will leave the dock and go some where.... Cats are on and off the beach and are used like windsurfers and PWC. I feel that the Beach /Club venue is critical to enjoying the catamaran way of sailing.

You also wrote:
if I look at a beach cat that can't provide a family experience in the sport of sailing, and it costs just as much as a something else that will, I won't spend the money on the cat first. And I love sailing cats. But I'd rather be on the Bay with my family onboard, not having them sitting at the clubhouse wondering when Dad is coming in

I certainly understand your point about the family and everyone has a budget for their toys. One point that you might consider though. I have watched lots of boating families at Podickery over the years. The families with small kids.... simply lug the kids around on the boat. As the kids get bigger... they get a bigger boat. But as the kids get independent... they seem to hate going out on the boat..they fight to stay at the pool with their friends. The are easily bored and boating is nothing special. On the other hand, I have seen other families keep the kids interested by getting them on boats, windsufers, small cats that are age appropriate and theirs! . Mike Fahle has written on occasion that more little boats are far superior to larger and larger boats for the whole family. The OCRA Club seems to be balancing racing and social activities along with joining yacht clubs quite succesfully.

Take Care
Mark

Hey Mark,
I'm not sure what you mean when you "these boats will leave the dock and go somewhere" - most just take a noodle run around the River or Bay and return. Some go to spots to anchor for the day or night, but most go for a sail and come back, pretty much like what I do with my cat when I day sail. Maybe you mean lots of trips back and forth to the beach, whereas the marina boats go for a while and come back, not sure. Not sure if that's really a diff.

I may be the odd one - I never lost interest in going out for a sail with my folks as a kid. We'd pack up some food and head down the boat and spend the day sailing around the Bay. Never anchored, never went overnight. But usually started mid-day and came back late. The only complaint would come from my Mother when my Dad, Brother, and myself insisted that burying the lee rail was the only fun way to go upwind! Light air days were boring, but we were still where we wanted to be. And my brother and I were into sports and all the usual stuff, so we had distractions.

I'll agree that for turning youngsters loose on the water in something age-appropriate is good. And I am a strong advocate of having as many boats as you can (don't make me count...), just because you should. Growing up, in summer time we had a small skiff and other stuff to use, and we made use of them (catch minnows, sell to bait store, buy gas for outboard...), none required a yacht club. The family outings are what stick in my mind - the times we kept the boat in fancy facilities with all the trim none of that stuff ever got used - if we were there we went sailing and nobody got left/stayed behind, so the extra money was wasted.

So, again, have lots of toys - but when you do, one or the other will take priority. And if costs as much to store/use a more limited toy as it does a bigger one, guess which one will lose in my house. But again, different situations call for different things, so I still say both are relevent. And I don't believe fancy facilities are a requirement for all of us.

Now, again, if PPYC wants more cats, I would suggest they offer a reasonable monthly or seasonal (not a yearly commitment) beach rent deal, with the pool and tennis as optional (not required) extras. Then advertise it. I'll bet they'd have success, and people could option up or down according to lifestyle and budget. I would even consider it. By the way, the last time I was at PPYC a lot of the beach cats didn't look like they were getting the use your argument would support, but appearances could be deceiving.

Hi Keith

you wrote
Now, again, if PPYC wants more cats, I would suggest they offer a reasonable monthly or seasonal (not a yearly commitment) beach rent deal, with the pool and tennis as optional (not required) extras. Then advertise it. I'll bet they'd have success, and people could option up or down according to lifestyle and budget. I would even consider it

Several have tried and failed. because the managment treats the cats the same way as the powerboats... Its a package deal club membership plus slip fee.

The facility has the beach, grass picnic area with grills and tables, well equiped fittnes room, pool and bathhouse, Tennis court and club house with full kitchen and club house with tables chairs, couches and TV's. I think I pay about 1400 per year.

you wrote:
. By the way, the last time I was at PPYC a lot of the beach cats didn't look like they were getting the use your argument would support, but appearances could be deceiving.

No... you are correct... the boats are not used very often and several are for sail. Even a fantastic sailing location and facilitity does not insure a succesful catamaran scene. More is needed!!!

Take care
Mark

we have a yacht and sailing club. emphasis on sailing. i guess i'm pretty lucky, mast up storage $50 a year, dues $425 a year. we have a few yachty types , but active small boat sailors run the show. the club was started by a bunch of local sailors who got together and acquired some waterfront property, they started out in a municipal parking lot. big things can happen thru cooperation, starting a club is the first step. charleston has a very active sunfish club, they organize races, meet and party, and they dont own any property- yet.

I know the local sail club on Lake Hartwell has some catamarans but they are hardly ever used - some of the owners own mono-slugs as well. Personally, I haven't joined because I travel/race so much with my boat that joining the club doesn't make sense for me. The club is 45 minutes from my home and I would be constantly going back and forth to set the boat up and take it down saving me little or no time at all.

I've considered leaving a second boat at the club (I've got three right now !) but when I go sailing 'recreationally' it's usually for some race practice or tuning - so I need to sail my 'race' boat when I'm on the water.

There is a marina on the same body of water that will rent me fenced in stick up trailer storage for $30 / month and I am heavily considering that for next summer. If the sailing club were to offer a seasonal or monthly rental the eminities would be much more affordable.

Another thing that keeps my application from entering the envelope is a mandatory work time you must put in at the club...something like 10 or 20 hours a year. I do understand having that requirement but I would also like to see an option out of this kind of requirement. Perhaps I could offer products from my vinyl/sign business instead or could pay a slightly higher rate to opt out of the work. It's not that I don't care for doing yard work rather that I simply need to take care of other things when I'm not out on the water.