Hi (again) everyone, I'm getting ready to buy my first cat but still at a loss which cat to get!
Some of you helped me out very well before:
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...;amp;page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

Let me explain what I intend to do with my cat, and then the real problem....

I really want a cat to sail solo 80% of the time. It has to be cheap (I'm talking sub 2k $$$ or +/- 1750Eur) I want to race socially, but do not have the time or the money to get into any serious racing scene.
When sailing solo I would like to be able to take this cat out in all kinds of weather, on lakes and at the beach. This means I need to be able to assemble it solo too, and drag around on cattrax)

The problem I have is that I tend to get bored quickly. I need lots of ways to trim the boat so I can keep on top of things.

Wanting to sail solo (93Kg/200lbs) mostly I was looking at around 4.5 meter (14') cats like a Nacra 4.5 or a Dart(Sprint) 15. They seem small enough to be easily handled, and can be car topped if needed.

However, could these small boats handle two adults occasionally (don't have to be competitive 2-up)? The nacra is described as an entry-level boat. The Sprint 15 (and 18) is marketed as "simple". Would that mean the chances are I may get bored quickly? If so I would prefer getting something like an old Nacra 5.2. They are dirt cheap and look like you can trim them to infinity. Which should keep me busy... But, is a Nacra 5.2 too much to handle comfortably solo? A salesman told me the Nacra 5.8 could be handled solo, but I think his sales agenda was fuelling that advice... I shudder to think of raising the mast, let alone righting one solo in light winds.

Basically I'm looking for an exciting and fast solo cat that can take a friend out every now and again and still have fun.

Can anyone offer some tips or things I may not have considered? Things I like are trim possibilities, safety (solo righting without poles and bags), I prefer boomless designs and I like dagger boards, though I also like boardless designs for their robustness.

Thanks,
Dennis

You got that right !

I wouldn't want a nacra 5.8 for singlehanded sailing even if I was given one for free.

Wouter

Well Dennis, I remember your posts. Let the pro's get into this but it seems to me that your asking for lots of different things (if you find the boat thats fits all those parameters please let me know). Personally I would go with the Hobie 18, put a mast float on it for days your solo, use a pole system for righting. and put it on a trailer. and go sailing. bang for the buck that will be a good combo. A hobie 18 was my first boat and I wish I still had it. In my opinon

Not sure a pole would help you right it if you dont have enough weight (even Rick's picture shows 2 people on it...)



http://store.catsailor.com/tek9.asp?pg=products&grp=146

I would think the righting bag would help more than a pole.

It holds "Theoretical maximum capacity of the 18" x 32" bag is 250 lbs."

I sail an old 5.2 and I love it. I sail it solo 90% of the time and it is great to sail that way.

When the wind really picks up I don't use the jib and still can solo easily.
Also I can right it solo at 6 foot tall and 180lbs. I don't think I would go much larger than the 5.2 for solo sailing.

Dennis, Depending on your finances and your weight, I would lean toward the following boats. Nacra 4.5, M4.3,Hobie 16,Dart,and if you can find one, a Sea Spray 15..at 180-200 lbs. full up 15' awl and 6.5' wide. the 20+' mast is very lite (10-14 lbs.) depending on it being a sock or a halyard rig. best of all, these boats can be had for $200 to $500 USD ! wish you were in the states.(I have six).I know many were sold in Holland etc.

I agree. I made myself a pole and it didn't work. Without someone else to help, it`s hard to keep it perpendicular to the boat and hang on the tip of it. So I had to keep one feet on the hull or on the dolphin striker, not making a real difference with respec to using just a righting line. Then I ended up broking it, precisely because I was not hanging from the tip but somewehere near the middle ot it. Now I have a bag. Haven't tested it yet, but I guess it will work.
Personally I wouldn`t go less than 16 ft. I have a nacra 5.0 and have sailed it in quite strong winds with no problem. I weight 87 kg. I like not having to deal with daggerboards, but I would prefer having them if the boat would point significantly better (wich probably would happen). I can raise the mast solo, I use the mast support from the trailer to start raising the mast from an initial angle.

I made a righting pole for the Stingray 18ft with 32ft mast and it works fine for me to right it on my own but for fast pure and simple fun with a quick setup and easy to right I think an old "A class" would keep you busy enough.
regards

Same here. Really old 5.2. I've added a asymmetric spi and I sail solo most of the time. If it is really windy I leave the jib in the trailer box. I'm fine (at 100kgs) up to the 20 knots mark, and on survival mode from 25 and up.

Wouter,
thanks. Good to know it's not just me being a total wimp!

Avalondalyn,
what exactly did you like most and what do you miss most about your H-18? I know that it seems that "I want it all, and I want it now (Queen)" But what I'm basically trying to do is not compromise from the start but at the end, once I get the big picture. Now all I have is a lot of fragmented information and lots of missing pieces.
That said, I'm afraid the Hobie 18 will be out of my league for single handing. But please convince me otherwise if you feel I may be mistakenly writing this excellent boat off! The mast float is an excellent idea. I think I'll build one with an internal radar reflector when I get my boat.

Gree 2056 and pepin,
good to know you both still love your old Nacra 5.2s and can right them solo! Now that (Inter 17) spin sure sounds interesting... Is the 5.2 easy to move around solo on the beach and can you also step the mast by yourself? pepin, thanks for those windspeed indications. To me that indicates the boat is manageable under the conditions I would normally encounter.

1943,
Of the boats you recommend only the H16 (of course), the Dart (15 or 18?) and last but not least the Nacra 4.5 appear to be readily available on the second hand market in my area. Given the above; I don't like the aesthetics or the relative lack of buoyancy of the H16 (sorry), though I have sailed one (a rental) with no problems. The Dart has a strong class assn. around here, which is a definite plus. But It appears to have been geared more toward "easy to rig and sail" than toward the "exciting performer" end of the scale. I have not sailed one, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The Nacra 4.5 looks nice and must be really easy to handle solo, but it also seems to be geared toward ease of use mostly. I'd like to know how many people it could carry without tripping up all the time.

Andinista, AndrewScott and JeffS,
thanks for the warnings and the tip (A class). Personally I consider solo righting without extra complexity a minimum requirement. This means I will only buy a boat which I'm confident I can right without mechanical aids. If it turns out otherwise I'll then still have the pole as plan 'B'. If OTOH I were to buy a boat thinking it would be all right with a rigting bag or pole, and it turns out that I can't get it to work.... (I tend to sail in places and at times where no one else seems to go very often)

The way it looks now I'm most interested in the Nacra 4.5, 5.0 & 5.2. Performance wise any F-16 or a less extreme "A" class boat found to be affordable sounds like a nice option!
I think buying anything much over 16' (5m) will be biting off more than I can chew...


Thanks everyone,
Dennis

I sailed my h-18 mostly solo. it was was easy to right with a solo-right pole w/ the mast float. she was heavy, fun, basicly bullet proof. in my opion the TheMightyHobie18 can facilate a wide range in the learning curve. It was my first sail boat. the price's are right. you can get parts easy. its just a very versital boat. If you can "master" (i never did)the TheMightyHobie18 you then be ready for any high performance cat. good luck, getting out there on anything is much better internet sailing.

I also have an INter17 spin rigged up on my 5.2. It works very well.
The boat is plenty light enough to move around alone. I mean there are times I wish I had another person but 90% of the time I am fine, just getting up steep banks and such can be tough.

The 5.2 has a fairly modern hull shape and when sailed well can pace alot of the newer cats.

If you can find a Mystere 4.3 it is a job boat to get you ready for the newer boats. I have one and I am 210 lbs. You get squaretop main, blade jib and a snuffer like the new boats. GREAT boat if you can find one.

Doug

Forget about the F16's, while they satisfy most of your requirements they can be had in NL for less then 10.000 Euro's and they are not leasure boats that like being run up the beach.

My advice, as last time, is the nacra 5.0 or 500, they come most close to what you are asking for and on the secondhand market you can get them for 1500-2000 euro's. They also take relatively well to a spi and sail quite well both when singlehanding and doublehanding.

Also the Nacra dealor still supports this boat type and actually is promoting the 500 alot. The Hobie 18 is a dead boat when NL is concerned, the nacra 4.5 never took off here and the mystere 4.5 never made it here. Nacra 5.2 is out of production for a long time and I'm not sure how many spare parts the Nacra dealor keeps for this type anymore.

Wouter

just to chime in on the nacra 5.2

1. they are cheap because they are old but their hull and dagger design still looks very modern, so they clean up well

2. with even a jib luff adjustment they can be tuned almost continually if you like sailing efficently

3. at 93kg you may be able to solo right it without assistance. at 75kg i've been unable to right mine the twice it's been over

4. if you get a trailer and the captive mast base, stepping the mast is apparently possible solo. with the old base and no trailer i've been able to step and remove my mast by using a couple of scaffolding supports and tipping the boat over, pic attached

5. 2 adults is what they were made for so no problems there, racing with 3 would be a bit slow but cruising no problem

6. they have big efficient daggers but also a boom. kind of hard to want a fully tunable rig but then no boom...

but i guess you'll be limited by what becomes available in your area. if you buy a cheap but sound boat you should have no problems selling it on if you decide you want something else later
plently of hull volume

Performance carries all the needed parts for the 5.2 and supposeable they still have the molds and if you had enough money I bet you could get a new one.

Well i dont know anyone who can right a Hobie 18 without crew or bag... they claim to be around 420 lbs, but i think its more like 450. I never was able to right it alone and i am 200 lbs.

Avalondarlyn,
I still think the TheMightyHobie18 is really too much for me at this time. Sounds like an exciting first cat though!

Gree2056,
that sounds good, add points to the N5.2...
If the parts are a problem I can always buy another 5.2, they are that cheap.

DougSnell,
I'll keep an eye out for one, though I don't recall seeing one. Of course, I wasn't really looking up to now.

Wouter,
Darn it man, why does there always have to be a "catch"! The F16 and A cats are probably not robust enough to take the neglect they will get from me. Good point. They are off my list. (You built yours yourself right? What's the outer skin on your cat? 400Gr /sqm s-glass? or even less?)

I re-read your previous in-depth advice... I'm just looking for more performance now than I was back then. My wife convinced me to get a cat primarily for myself and not bother accounting for her and the kids. That's why. I'd still like to take them out every now and again, but it shouldn't influence the final selection too much...

erice,
I know about the boom conundrum... I'm sort of split on the issue. I love the idea of doing easy gybes in heavy weather, but with proper technique a boom should not be too much of a liability I guess.

AndrewScott,
I have already ruled out the TheMightyHobie18. Would have been cool, but I think it is just too much for me to take on solo.

Thanks all,
Looks like it will most likely be a N 5, 5.0 or 5.2 then... Though there are still other boats that may be equally suited.

Regards,
Dennis




So I guess that's why I'm leaning towards the 5.2. A

To me the first decision is if you want racing or just recreational sailing. If you want a little bit of both, just make sure you are not leaving doors open "just in case", it might lead you to a not so good decision.
If you want some racing, I don´t have an opinion (better listen to the experts). If you want recreational sailing, I would follow with:

- Define the size. 14, 16 and 18 feet boats are different animals. The size is not proportional to lenght (think what happens if you double the radius of a sphere). Try different boats and see the difference, the decision should be very straightforward, just compromising with the ease of rigging, righting and moving, but these things have been pretty much solved I think, you just need to figure out if the extra effort it´s worth for you or not.

- Go over the compromise of performance versus simplicity, it also defines the kind of boat you want. (decide if you want boards and boom).

- Then look at your budget and start over. A couple of iterations should be enough.

I´m sure I'm forgetting something, but just don´t overanalize things.

And make sure that your boat has room for your wife and children, "just in case"..... I frequently sail with my wife and two daughters, all on board. And they are not too crazy about sailing, but like to get a ride from time to time. Even my mother join us sometimes, like in this picture. (yes, the one on the trapeze..)

No glass on the outside. It is just 4 mm and 3 mm marine grade ply (multiplex). Only the decks between the beams has a single layer of glass on top of it to make it more robust under trapeze hooks and other sharp objects hitting it. And they HAVE ! The 4 mm ply with a single layer of glass is very damage resistant, more so then any modern foam cored glass hull.

Actually, my ply F16 is pretty tough and you handle it just as carefully as say an F18; but in my experience leasurely sailors often try to be as negligiant and obusive as possible, hence my advice.

Wouter