Dennis,

In your first post in this thread you seem to be describing a Dart boomless, daggerless, simple. I see a lot of people sailing their Dart 18 solo, perhaps someone can tell the weight/length required to right one solo. There are a lot of Dart 18 about in the Netherlands, you should be able to pick one up that fits your budget. Furthermore the Dart has an active class organisation over here so you won't be alone. Keep in mind that spending a bit more when you purchase the boat might save you more than that cost to replace worn parts soon after buying. After you factor in costs for gear, a place on the beach during the season and storage during the winter, it might be wise to buy a boat that you really like to justify those costs. But if yiu want to go catsailing you'll find a way to make it work. Hope to see you on the water soon, Succes man!!

The Dart 16 is great fun singlehanded. Plastic hulls can be treated roughly. Reefable main and furling jib, means you can handle almost any conditions.

Thanks Andinista,
I think you are on to me... The problem seems to be that I want to do both. The truth is that, even though I hate to admit it to myself: I won't be racing anything anytime soon due to other priorities. Maybe I am trying to leave "doors open just in case" as you put it... Leading to an unhealthy compromise. I'll bear that in mind...

My biggest fear is that I will get bored and frustrated quickly if a boat does not offer all the modern bells and whistles. I guess this is my monohull trauma (aka complete and utter boredom) playing up! OTOH, too big a boat and it all starts to become intimidating. I need to be in command at all times, I consider that a matter of safety.

A real world example is the rental Topcat K1 that I sailed with my brother. There was no mast rotation limiter or another control I could find to do the job. Under te circumstances we encountered there was almost always WAY too much rotation (like hard-over 100%..). Things like this really P1$$ me off bigtime! I'm getting mad now just thinking back...Of course, it could well have been due to my own ignorance, which is at least relatively cheap to remedy!

Put another way: I want to be the limiting factor on any boat I sail. Not the other way around.


A 16' (5m) boat sounds best, given that I do want to take others out every now and then. I have sailed a Hobie 16, with my brother in law, and the boat felt "about right" for one or two people. The 18' Topcat was too much, I would not even consider taking that boat out solo.

"performance versus simplicity" that is indeed the basic question and it is still bugging me beyond belief!

Wouter,
hardy any outside glass, that amazes me! No wonder that boat is so light. Though I used to own a monohull with almost no outer skin I hardly ever sailed (moored!) her solo. A designer once told me it was hard to beat marine ply for strength to weight ratio in small boats, but this is taking it to extremes!

Genealex,
You are absolutely right! Dart 18 and the strong class org. make te boat very interesting. OTOH, Does one invalidate one's measurement certificate by adding a couple of blocks for a spin halyard? I really NEED a spin or light winds will really bore me to death.

Dermot,
thanks for the suggestion. I'm a little wary of roto-moulded boats because I don't know how to repair them myself or if this is even possible! I know and trust epoxy, fibreglass and foam quite well. Lets say I'm biased against anything else (Ahum... except marine ply of course, Wouter).

Thanks again everyone helping me out with this infernal decision (maybe a good boat name in there...) Or should that be my infernal INdecision...

Dennis,

SCHRS has a rating for a Dart 18 fitted out with a spinnaker check it out on www.schrs.com, so you can race on handicap. On the other hand, to compete in class events you can't carry a spi. I don't know how much of your spi gear you have to remove to be class legal, i'd say check it out with the class org. I'd be inclined to take it all off when racing class events, if you can't use it, why lug the weight around?
I understand that it's daunting task to buy a cat on a limited budget, I've been there and still am running my trusty old P19 on a shoestring, but once you accept your limitations you'll start solving problems instead of looking for them.
I honestly think you're going to struggle to find a cat that meets all your requirements at the budget you stated, so stop worrying. Unless your name is Bundock, Ashby, Brouwer, van Heemskerk, Booth et al you are going to be the limiting factor on your boat. I'd say pick a boat that fits your circumstances most closely and start having fun while learning to sail the tits off it!

The Dart 18 class is NL is indeed a very attractive group. They are not too large but very active and good fun. None of them sail with a spi however and in the past we have had several reports that Dart 18 doesn't take well to the spi package at all. Apparently it is to slow in turning and to narrow up front to effectively ride the spinnaker well. I think the Nacra 5.0 or 500 holds up better on adding a spinnaker.

Personally I agree with everything else said by others.

Wouter

I put a spi set on my Dart 18. You don't necessarily need a crew to use it and I did singlehand quite often. Unfortunately, there are no photo's in the archives showing it flying. In the photo below the spi is safely in the bag, after 3 capsizes we thought it was the best place for it!!! However, it was windy that day. If you predominately sail in light to medium winds it is a good toy. Darts aren't exactly the most technical Cats to sail so having a spi was a lot more fun. Righting the Dart singlehanded was near impossible in very light winds and I had to use the tramp bag on a couple of occasions but I'm fairly light 158lbs.

I said it was windy, check out the rooster tail on the Dart behind

And with the bag it´s easy or still hard / near impossible?

If it was windy the bag wasn't required, medium winds rarely, light winds and drifters more often but not every time. The Dart was my first Cat so now with a little bit more knowledge i.e letting the downhaul off as well as letting the main and traveller out I would probably succeed in righting more often without the bag.

Given that Nacra 5.0 and 5.2 are on your list, it would be interesting to hear a comparison regarding their ability to point. Reading your comments, Dennis, I would say that you care more than I about performance and tuning. I like very much my 5.0 in all aspects (including how cheap it was), except for how it points, it makes me feel like underperforming sometimes. It might be me in part, I know it requires some skills (weight distribution for instance), but I've read that the 5.2 points better. I just don´t konw how significant is the difference.
And taking that subject to a more general perspective, maybe a cat with daggerboards is just more suited for those who care to control and fine tune as much as they can.

Another comment regarding racing: I used to race long ago, on Laser II. It was fun at first, but when I realised that my cheap boat was not really competitive, it started to suck.. the ones that I used to beat learned quickly how to tune their boats and left me out of the podium. Limited budget can be an issue for racing.

Regardiong mast rotator, there are for boomless boats. They extend towards the bow and have two lines, one to each side of the beam, to limit the mast rotation. I haven't felt the need to instal one (I'm too lazy maybe), but it seems that you would need to adjust more frecuently than in case of having a boom.

I used to say with the Dart 18: "If there was enough wind to cause a capsize - there was enough to help me get back up"

Wouter,
you could be right about the Nacra 5.0 or 500. I'm inclined to favor the 5.2 though. Still I think I will have to just give the boats a test sail and see which one has the right "feel" to it. To me buying aboat is also about emotional response, and I may be looking for problems that are simply not there in real life.


MarkP,
thanks for posting the photos, very nice. Good to know a spinnaker can be added successfully.

Andinista,
You are right, I do care a lot about performance and tuning. To me it is hard to know whether an entry level cat will keep me busy for long enough to not get bored or frustrated as I did on most monohulls (the bigger, the worse). Cats are different beasts than monohulls, so maybe a Nacra 4.5 would be all I need for the next five or six years. But then again, maybe not. Adding a spinnaker to a smaller cat sounds like a recipe for excitement though.

Dermot,
Perhaps I lack your level of self confidence. I doubt the wind will ever capsize me on any halfway decent boat. My own bungling is another story though! So I may just buy a water bag and a righting pole after all...

All,
I think I need to go and actually try some boats before buying anything. I'll try the N5.2 first to see if that works for me, if that proves too daunting (or I can't find one that isn't bent, soft or full of holes) I'll try to find a decent albeit more expensive N4.5 - 5.0 or a cheap Dart 18 and give those a spin.
Of course, if any of the other, more hard to come by, suggested boats turn up around here I may give them a test sail too.
Next step to me is to get a cheap dry suit so I can actually go and try some of these cats before the season is over AGAIN...

Thank you everyone for your excellent advice and your personal opinions. I really appreciate the effort! If we ever meet IRL; I owe you all a beer!

Hey, don´t be so confident about not capsizing, pitchpoling happens really fast, if you are doing something else, like arranging a rope or watching the feminin crew of other boats, it will get you... And the more sophisticated the boat, the faster it happens. You don´t need pole and bag though, one of them should be enough. (But it seems like some feedback from other users of poles would be useful, as I said I didn't have a good experience).

Let us know how it goes. Good luck.

Andinista,
Hey: Gotcha. That's exactly what I call bungling... I just don't tend to blame the wind or any external factor. I truly believe the root cause of most problems I encounter is between my own ears. The advantage is that this allows me to fix things efficiently (once I find out). The disadvantage: it can get depressing from time to time...

One exception you mentioned though: Looking at girls 9esp. on other boats). A boat is like a wife... Look at another and she always takes revenge. When you are sailing "there can be only one"...
Naah, I'm just pulling your leg.

Actually I seldom, if ever capsized in the 10 years I raced the Dart 18. However, if the wind was force 5 or more, pitchpoling did happen - very fine bows. In these conditions, with the boat facing the wind, dropping the traveller and letting off the downhaul, the Dart 18 comes up very quickly.

Forget the friends - the Shadow is the cat for you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

a nice little ditty and easy to remember but probably pretty dangerous to boat and solo sailor

fact is a newbie sailing solo on most 16,17,18 foot cats is likely to tip the boat over in winds not strong enough to get the boat back up

then hopefully they'll get assistance
if not the boat could end up smashed against the shore if close in or sailor dying of hypothermia if far out

has happened before and will continue to happen

Well put..
Sure these boats can be found cheap but then again, what's your life worth? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Not sure what the skill levels are.
Find a little more money and get an older Taipan 4.9 (mine was $1,500NZD and an artwork I had laying around) and don't worry about all of the Spinny kit of F16.
None of the other boats are remotely comparable. Faster, easier to right and tougher and hugely trim-able with one/two sail option and then strong gear ratios.
My Nacra 14sq has been a great ride and was only $2,500 NZD in excellent order.

I don't think there are any nacra 5.2 in NL that are younger then 15 years. Most are from the 80's even, about 20 years old. While I owned and sailed a 25 year old boat myself alot I feel that finding such old boats in relatively good condition is rare. Therefor I think finding yourself a decent 5.2 in NL is setting a high goal, just because you want to have daggerboards.

I haven't seen a nacra 5.2 in years.

Wouter

Well, if you would like to see a NACRA 5.2, there are 2 of them for sale on thebeachcats.com website. To far away I know, but you can still take a look. The one I looked at appears to be in pretty good shape. So they are still out there ...............


Tom

Tom,


"... in NL ..." means IN THE NETHERLANDS !

There could be a million excellent Nacra 5.2 in the USA and not make any difference to the fact that they are rare and old in NL were Dennis is located !

Wouter