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Advice for a newb ... #131182
02/08/08 11:12 AM
02/08/08 11:12 AM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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Snoqualmie, WA
Hi all,

I've been doing lotsa research lately about getting into doing some beach cat sailing.

First let me start with some background ...
I've been around boats most of my life living in AK. Most power, but have launched row dinghies into surf. Very little sailing other than rides/crew when young. My wife hasn't been on water much at all ...

I've also repaired boats (some quite extensive), so working with wood and fiberglass is not a problem for me.

On a recent vacation, we took out a beach cat for a few trips. That was enough to get her hooked, and now we'd like to get a cat we can use in the lakes here in the pacific northwest (probably trips down to the gorge too). We'll probably be moving to CA in the next few years which would increase the season we'd use a boat also.

I'm curious on suggestions some of the "salts" here would have about us getting started ...

Some options I've been considering.

1) Get a used boat (h16?), fix it up, and build my sailing skills. Would probably also mean lotsa renovation to be reliable and a decent performer. boat + trailer + refit == $3000?

2) Get a new boat (getaway?). Would get me sailing immediately, but may be disappointed with performance? Also, at $7500 (for a getaway+wings), I'd want it to hold some resale if/when I wanted.

3) Build a boat (Blade F16). Something I'll probably do (and the scope of the project doesn't worry me), but means I'd be building rather than sailing for a year. Any ideas on the cost here. Not looking for a fully race ready rig, but quality components (au spars, harken blocks, etc). If I went with option #1, how much of that rig could move over? For example, say I can get a cheap H16 that needs sails, could I get a F16 sail (perhaps with new spars), fit it to the H16 until I get to building new hulls?

My current thoughts are to keep my eyes out for a decent used 16' cat, but if nothing shows up perhaps bite the bullet and get the getaway. Then perhaps next winter I would start on a blade ...

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131183
02/08/08 11:53 AM
02/08/08 11:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,844
42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Todd_Sails Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Todd_Sails  Offline
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
Sounds like you have a plan.

My advice is stay away form the Getaway, unless that's what you're really looking for.

Used H 16's are dimes a dozen.

Good luck


F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131184
02/08/08 12:09 PM
02/08/08 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Plan A sounds the best for now.

Hook up with Hobie Fleet 95 in Seattle. They can turn you on to a good used boat.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: Todd_Sails] #131185
02/08/08 12:19 PM
02/08/08 12:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 168
San Diego
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hokie Offline
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You should easily be able to get a mid-80s Hobie 16/18, Nacra 5.0/5.2/5.7, prindle 16/18 for your price range. Look on the classifieds here, at thebeachcats.com, craigslist.org, and local newspapers for areas you are willing to drive to.



Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: mbounds] #131186
02/08/08 01:39 PM
02/08/08 01:39 PM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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CurreyR  Offline OP
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Quote
Plan A sounds the best for now.

Hook up with Hobie Fleet 95 in Seattle. They can turn you on to a good used boat.

got any link on contacting them? ... I see fleet 72 seems active, but my search-fu is failing me to contact fleet 95.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: hokie] #131187
02/08/08 02:04 PM
02/08/08 02:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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Quote
You should easily be able to get a mid-80s Hobie 16/18, Nacra 5.0/5.2/5.7, prindle 16/18 for your price range. Look on the classifieds here, at thebeachcats.com, craigslist.org, and local newspapers for areas you are willing to drive to.

I might go look at this ... http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/boa/564018493.html
possibly a bit too much boat for a newb like me, but if I can hook up with some locals, it might be a good boat to grow into.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131188
02/08/08 02:33 PM
02/08/08 02:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I'm a F16 class co-founder and I say that option (1) is your best choice at this time.

Don't try to use H16 parts of whatever on the Blade F16, except small blocks and lines maybe. All the other stuff like mast, sails, mainsheet blocks etc needs to be suited to the F16 setup and none of the H16, P16 or whatever are. F16 is a total concept that pretty much needs all to work together well. That means a lightweight mast, relatively flat mainsail, high powered mainsheet blocks, highly stressed downhaul system. Otherwise sailing an F16 is about as much fun as riding a wild mustang.

If you still want a boat like the F16 eventually then I would find yourself a nice secondhander for a decent price and start building the F16 over 2 years or so while sailing this boat on the fair weather days. That will also take the pressure of the boatbuilding. Then after a year or 2 you'll be ready to switch boats and if you want or need the money you can sell your secondhander on to another newby.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: Wouter] #131189
02/08/08 02:52 PM
02/08/08 02:52 PM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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Thx,

yea, I kinda figa option #1 is my best bet. I'm known to over reach my abilities sometimes and so getting into a "race rig" is probably too big a step at this time.

For example, even the docile cat we had on vacation I was "pushing" ... my wife was getting nevous when we'd even approach lifting a hull (she did tho LOVE when getting it up to speed). When I almost pitchpoled it (but did recover), she lost her smile <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131190
02/08/08 02:55 PM
02/08/08 02:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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CurreyR  Offline OP
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Snoqualmie, WA
BTW, am I correct on thinking about something in a 16' range?

I suspect when I need to right it, I'll probably be alone (my over-reaching tendency).

So, in 1-up, a 16' is probably my best bet?

I also want to be able to have 2-up capability (with some speed), so less that 16 would be too small?

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: Wouter] #131191
02/08/08 03:19 PM
02/08/08 03:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Hi,

Wouter's advise is spot on as usual. Let me add the comment that if you plan to eventually sail a more technical boat with more adjustments I would look for at the slightly larger boats then the H-16 or P-16/18, boats with adjustable mast rotation, downhaul, and outhaul features on the mainsail. The Nacra 5.5 was a nice ride sloop/uni-rig as were the 5.2s & 5.8s. Depending on your wieght the Prindle-18/2 or the P-19 are excellent rides also. The cheapest, most availible Hobie with these features would be the H-18 (of course), they are still raced so as to improve your skills quickly and are indestructable (all-most). If you wish find a "Magnum" (wings) model for cruising w/ friends, remove the wings for "class" racing. Currently HobieCat is producing an excellent quality set of sails for the boat.

The H-20 is too much of a pure racing machine and is very hard on novice crews. (unless your girlfriend is on the helm) It beats the women up terribly, its the jib traveler on the tramp-bruise city. The Nacra 6.0 is the same and the H-21se is most likely just Too large/heavy for you. The I/N-20s even used are pricey !!!

So I would find a used H-18mag, and start to learn ... building the F-16 over the next few years ... or buy a F-18 boat when you know how to make it GOoooo !!! You may find that you keep the H-18mag as a "beater", they are really good when the kids,nephews/nieces want to start to sail ....

Thats what happened to me ... you regress as you get older and slowwer.

Sail Flat, Sail Fast
HarryMurphey
H-18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P-19mx/#86, CRAC

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131192
02/08/08 03:27 PM
02/08/08 03:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
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Seattle,Wa
Quote
Quote
Plan A sounds the best for now.

Hook up with Hobie Fleet 95 in Seattle. They can turn you on to a good used boat.

got any link on contacting them? ... I see fleet 72 seems active, but my search-fu is failing me to contact fleet 95.


Don't worry Fleet 95 has found you!

Go to http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/ for all the contacts and links.
Or, http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewforum.php?f=38

We'll also be down at the Sail Sand Point Center on Saturday 2/9 @ 1:00pm. It's also the home of HobieCats Northwest, our local dealer.

Last edited by Don_Atchley; 02/08/08 03:30 PM.

Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131193
02/08/08 04:30 PM
02/08/08 04:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 64
Sandy, UT
SteveBlevins Offline
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Sandy, UT
I don't think you could do better than the P-18-2 for $1200 for your first boat. If you get it you will not have to deal with the MANY frustrations of a 'banana' boat. If the number of controls seems intimidating, don't use it. Don't use the jib if you want to start super simple. The 3 most important controls on the boat, steering, mainsheet and downhaul are well designed and work easily.

It is actually no more complex than the other boats, and handles way better. With just a little experience it will be much easier for a novice to handle in a blow, and with no experience no harder to handle.

The only downside compared to the H-16 is that the hulls are a foam core design and aren't as damage resistance as the H-16. I'd rather sail an airplane than a tank.

Depending on the condition of the mainsail, you might want to have a slightly smaller one built for you. Elliott-Pattison Sails and Glaser are VERY experienced with building sails for the boat to suit your needs.

I owned and sailed extensively a H-16, H-17 and 2 P-19s. The P-18-2 is a little better boat than the P-19. There are many sailors experienced with this boat in SoCal.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: SteveBlevins] #131194
02/08/08 04:44 PM
02/08/08 04:44 PM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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I might be outta luck on that P-18/2 (I'm 3rd inline).

I do think you're right tho, I do like it over a H16 ...
Seems a more "modern" hull and something that I could grow into rather than something I'll want to offload in a year or so.

Thx all for the suggestions and opinions ...

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131195
02/08/08 05:02 PM
02/08/08 05:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Finland
valtteri Offline
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Finland
If you are interested in building more than the outcome then I would say go for it. I wont guess on prices though because I don't know situation at states, you'll save some money comparing a brand new one but you'll spend lot of time on your project. For me the journey was quite relaxing (mostly) and totally different than my day job.

Bottom line is that if you are just building to get a boat to sail you better get yourself brand new or used boat instead and go sailing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Valtteri Blade F16
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: valtteri] #131196
02/08/08 05:17 PM
02/08/08 05:17 PM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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Honestly, I *like* building. Primarily it's the pride in knowing *I* made this. There is also the fact I get it done *my* way and not what was cost effective or easily mass-produced. I'm also capable (and have the facilities), so that's not an issue ... concentrated time for a whole year, that can become an issue.

For example, I've been active in 4x4 off-roading, and there is a BIG differance in reliability, adjustability, and capability between a rig that is "built" vs an "off the lot" jeep with some additional $$$ parts.

I suspect the same is true for the sailing community. You may not have to home build hulls, but being able to outfit to *your* liking is what makes it *your* boat (race or not).

That said, I *DO* want to get some sailing done this season to build skills (no substitute for tiller time), so sounds like I'll by a used boat and then continue to dream about my *perfect* setup.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131197
02/08/08 05:53 PM
02/08/08 05:53 PM
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japan
erice Offline
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just some ideas

- if the other 2 pass on that p18/2 buy that

- while it is still too cold to sail take bits off and put them back on, boom, rudder assembly etc. practice hoisting the sails on windless days, (nice sunny mornings god for this) tip it over and take the mast off, take it on and off the trailer etc.....

- when the sailing season starts take it down to the hobie fleet and ask if anyone wants to helm while you crew

- then swap and you helm while they crew

- offer to swap boats with anyone for the day

- if you find you really like the hobies let people know you'd swap boats for good


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: erice] #131198
02/11/08 02:24 PM
02/11/08 02:24 PM
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Snoqualmie, WA
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CurreyR Offline OP
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So ...

Seems like I'll get a used boat to start with.

I traded some PM's with HMurphy about "size" ...
I'd like to get a boat that I can right myself (I'm about 200 lbs). I also want something that'll be "fun" when my wife crews (she's about 160lbs).
I also don;t expect to use this as a "race" boat, more of a "fun" boat. Thing is some performance is what'll make it fun (as well as just running around the water on a nice day).

So, 16' or 18'?
An 18 (or larger) I'm worried would be too much for me to rite myself, but sounds like would be great for a 360lbs of skip+crew.
A 16 I would hope I could rite, might be a bit slow with our 360lbs, but still fun enough?

I appreciate the comments so far, and have been watching for used boats in my area.

Quote

- while it is still too cold to sail take bits off and put them back on, boom, rudder assembly etc. practice hoisting the sails on windless days, (nice sunny mornings god for this) tip it over and take the mast off, take it on and off the trailer etc.....

- when the sailing season starts take it down to the hobie fleet and ask if anyone wants to helm while you crew

- then swap and you helm while they crew


Yea, that's part of my plan on getting up to speed.

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131199
02/11/08 02:40 PM
02/11/08 02:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 120
Finland
valtteri Offline
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Finland
You sound like good candidate for enjoying the build process. I wasn't trying to put you down, just meant that it takes time to build that could be spent sailing if that is biggest priority. And launching your own creation is awesome feeling <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Valtteri Blade F16
Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: CurreyR] #131200
02/11/08 03:29 PM
02/11/08 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 221
North Carolina
hrtsailor Offline
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North Carolina
I have been sailing an H-16 since I bought it new in 1985, 23 years. I singlehand much of the time though I have carried up to 3 additional adults with no problem. When my son-in-law and I sail, our combined weight is more than 370 lbs. We have been out double trapped and flying a hull. The H-18 has larger hulls, providing more buoyancy but I believe it would be harder to single-hand. I also feel that the trampoline on the H-18 is more cramped because of the dagger boards and the jib sheet blocks. Righting an 18 alone would be difficult.

I rig the 16 alone, raising the mast with no problem. I would expect that to be difficult on either the H-18 or the P-18. The H-16 has been very popular for a long time with good reason. There should be a good number of used boats available at a reasonable price. I am pretty biased since I have owned the H-16 for so long but I don't think you would go wrong with it.

Howard

Re: Advice for a newb ... [Re: valtteri] #131201
02/11/08 03:30 PM
02/11/08 03:30 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Forget righting it yourself... get mast float and a big righting bag and dont worry about it.


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