For the operation market garden alone :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden




Some of my own family are part of the latter category. Their farm house was torched by Germans because they thought some allied soldiers had found refuse there. They were burned inside.





Canucks didn't fight at Market-Garden as they were much further west. However, there were several other major operations in NL in that last year of war were they provided the bulk of forces. The Canucks got their medals in operations like "Battle of the Scheldt". No Americans were included there at all, Polish and Brits were and the casualties were a shy 13.000; halve of them Cannucks. This number of casualties is pretty similar in total to the ones for market-garden, so it was a major undertaking. And it resembled the Pacific campaign in a mini format with numerous amphibious landings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Scheldt


Then we had operation Aintree (Battle of Overloon), the only major tank battle to ever have fought on Dutch soil and nicknamed as the "second battle of Caen" after the similarities between that vicious D-day operation for that town and this one. Again, quite heavy loses. Especially the Brits were cooked in their tins there. The town of Overloon itself was completely destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aintree


Actually, there appear to be several of these "forgotten battles", as when the breakthrough at Remagen was achieved the Allies quickly decided to race the Russians to Berlin for bragging rights and the push East claimed much of the attention and glamour. Thus taking away from the vital important battles like the "battle of the scheldt" that secured the supply lines and the harbour of Antwerp. Also the northern part of Holland was now beside the route and left hanging. It then endured something that is called the "Hunger winter". Very harsh winter with very large shortages of food. Racking up some more civilian casualties and ending the war very late for most Dutch people; after the battle for Berlin was concluded.


Looking over the more modern battles it appears commanders or the public haven't really learned that much. Who remembers Umm Qasr ? That small deep water harbour town in south Iraq had to be reconquered 5 times in a row because the real attention was on the race to Bagdad. Or the overstretched supply lines that were distrubed frequently holding the spearhead for lack of ammo and gaz ? Like at market-garden they assumed the enemy was already demoralized and beaten when in fact they were not. Alot of time generals care more for medals and personal grandeur then about their men. Market-Garden is a prime example.

Sadly even the Dutch themselves are hard pressed to recall such battles as the "battle for the Scheldt" and "Overloon". Many don't even known about the Polish regiments fighting here or the Sovjet prisoners on Texel Island who sabotaged during the night what they had done as forced labourers during the day. Punishment for getting caught was simple, obviously.

The Dutch too are brainwashed by movies to much and are automatically attracted to the loudest guy in the room claiming credit for everything.


At market-garden many smaller units were regrouped into larger columns and I understand that the regiment identifiers were quickly a name only. For example, a group of Canadian engineers were assigned to the American corps during the river crossings with bailey bridges and rafts. After disasterous landings; all able men were grouped together in new make-shift units. Operation Market-Garden is actually a good read.

I guess the real casualties numbers will always a bit undependable, but that was not waht my post was about earlier.

My point was that the Allies were called Allies for a reason. Many nations fought together under the same banner and everybody got in a binch one time or another. We never hear Canucks, Brits, Poles, Sovjets, Free French, free Dutch and who else harping on a liberated people to show some more gratitude. We especially don't hear any grandsons of these soldiers making such claims. That is with the exception of people from one particular nation.

I think it would do well to remember to honour the others but not making it look like you guys won it all. Because in Europe you really didn't, those were actually the Sovjets. They got 20 to 25 million deaths out of 40 to 45 million of the whole WW2 to show for it. I recall the Americans ranking up 750.000 deaths AND wounded in both theators combined. The Sovjets "did" that number of deaths in Stalingrad alone.

And of course it is also wise to remember that your Grandpa is/was a wholely different man then his grandson is today.

I'm ready to be flamed.

Wouter

What would have been the outcome had United States not gotten involved?

Yes, I couldn't even to begin to imagine being my father at age 24. Already a Major in the Army Air Corp leading a squadron of B-25's out of Stanly Tower Australia, or his brother David who at age 23 died flying missions over Europe. BTW he is buried at Margraten - thats how I know of it.

To get this back on track, to many folks on your side of the Atlantic are quick to criticize Americans when America has always been there to help when many EU members have needed it.

More Sovjet Deaths, a defeated Nazi Germany, Italy possibly remaining Fascist with some territories in Northern Afica (just like Spain) and Japan in control of Asia.

Wouter

If I promise not to lose my cool again, can I join in?

First my answer to Karl:

Selbstverständlich spreche ich Deutsch, Es ist buchstäblich meine Muttersprache.

A bit more of where I'm coming from:

My German grandfather served in the Wehrmacht and fought in the Western European campaign, and managed to survive the Russian campaign. My mother lost her home during an allied bombardment and had to be evacuated when she was a toddler. My Dutch grandfather was a petrochemical engineer who worked for ESSO on Aruba at the time. Unfortunately his family wasn't quite white enough to allow him to socialise easily with his american colleagues. My dad was once pulled out of the water at the company beach by the police at the instigation of a new american member who, remarking his colour, assumed he couldn't be a member. although to be honest, the white Dutchmen didn't need much help from their US brethren in this respect.

So yes, my attitude towards the USA is ambivalent, I love a lot of what the US have done. What you did after WW II in Europe is even more important than what you did during it. The Marshall plan with its money, know-how and vigour helped us to clean up the bloody mess we Europeans had made during the first half of last century. That time you managed to win the peace as well. However the US isn't automatically the good guy in everything it does. Continuously being called the great Satan is being overrated as an experience, I guess, but refraining from criticising everything that isn't done the american way might be nice as well.

History is important, to study what went right and wrong in the the past and why, but not as a way of keeping score of who owes what to whom. The people in the Balkan are very good at that and see what's happening again over there right now.

You will find very different views about.

But lets talk sailing again.

Wouter

Uhmmm. . . it doesn't stop there. Without all those G.I.s the Communist's would have had a much larger impact on post war Europe. Without all those G.I. boots in the mud, you could very well be speaking Russian. Or, maybe we would all be glowing in the dark.

A common new angle taken when the "we liberated you !" fails to work.

The communists already had a large influence on Europe; both before and after the war. Europe is politically very different to the USA, also Western Europe. Interventions where executed in Greece, Italy and France to prevent these nations from going really socialist. Nearly all Western Europe nations went socialist to various degrees anyway. Note how all these area's were under Western Ally control at the end of WW2 !

Additionally a good argument can be had about the rise of a more relaxed Europe if the Western powers hadn't decided to concilidated their fear of communists, detonating some nuclear bombs as a showcase, deviding Korea, Pattons remarks of forming old Nazi forces into new battle units, forming NATO and cracking down on communists partizans (main stay in the resistance) in Greece and Italy; all in a row. Soviet union felt threatened especially since she was heavily damaged from 5 years of all out ground war and again 20 million deaths. They wanted a new buffer zone and the warschau pact was a direct anwer to that threat. From then onwards they scrambled to also get a nuclear bomb and the cold war was born.

One could actually argue that the G.I.'s on the ground were actually instrumental in creating the situation that influenced Europe heavily and is known as the cold war. A couple of years later we got the korean war, the Berlin airbridge and the creation of the wall and iron curtain. All the result of escalation of tensions between the former allies because the west wanted to push back communism. The western allies had also remained very quiet on the pre-war rise of Hitler mostly because he was so anti-communist.


History won't permit itself to be easily summerized in a few one-liners. Certainly not if you want to advance some political points. That whole time frame between 1910 and 1989 was a pretty dirty story, on both sides. Actually I should write "1910 - present" as the blinded hatred of Communists resulted in the collapse of the Aghan nation and the rise of super fundamentals like Al-Queda and ... Well I guess you know what I mean here. Does anybody realize that in the 1970's Afghan women were walking around in miniskirts and getting university education ? However, as the communists were responsible for that it had to be destroyed. The only viable candidates to implement such a policy were the fundamentalists; who were weak at the time.

Pardon me, but I'm not convinced that the West was much better is doing "good things" then the East was.

Wouter

Guys, we had this EXACT SAME discussion about 2 years ago and it got very nasty - be careful <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[quote
Pardon me, but I'm not convinced that the West was much better is doing "good things" then the East was.

Wouter [/quote]

I quit.

Yeah, Joe Stalin was a Humanitarian......

When we are done talking politic's, shall we move to religon? or can we get back to sailing, regatta's and my other personal favorite, the Joke of the day !
altho even that has the potential to be contentious, a joke could be a bit too risque for some of our younger readers or a bit politiclly incorrect, so lets be a bit "careful" there too

Yeah, and W. Bush is the second coming of Gandhi

Wouter

That's certifiable.

Maybe you would prefer these bunch of funsters. TOOL!!!

Nederlandsche SS

[/quote] Pardon me, but I'm not convinced that the West was much better is doing "good things" then the East was.

Wouter [/quote]

I agree. We should get our butt out of those other countries and leave them to their own resources. Of course some little guy will get picked on...

Of course its all politics, as we most certainly know, and its the head(s) of governments that pick the fights. Most people are just like us, trying to make it in this world. We are more alike than most realize and politicians (in what ever flavor you have) just screw it up for the rest of us.

I've been to several different countries and many states. Individuals I've met are really wonderful people and I think that goes for anyone/anywhere with the exception of a FEW complete idiots. But we won't talk about mono sailors here won't we? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Peace and fair winds...

Clayton

Hey , did you know catamrans have 2 hulls now?

Yes Dave, and I bet the left hull thinks its better than the right hull and vice versa.....

Such a brilliant reply !


Remember that Dutch song "Over de muur" (over the wall), that sings about birds crossing the Berlin wall in both directions depending on where bread is spread out over the ground at the time.

In the 80's a friend of mine took that song with him to a gethering of youth organisations in Eastern Germany (He as parts of the scouts, they as the FDJ). The kids translated this song to eachother and it became almost the anphem of the gethering as all kids recognized themselves so much in the song.

And I must say it was an excellently straight talking and humanistic song.

I always remembered that occurance as one of lifes little gems.

Wouter