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Rules #132091
02/17/08 04:09 AM
02/17/08 04:09 AM
Joined: May 2006
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline OP
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Mark P  Offline OP
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There is never a right time to be controversial but since there has been a small discussion here about rules recently have a look at the photo below and ask yourself if this adjustable diamond tensioner is in the spirit of the rules!! The owner could possibly argue that this mechanism is never used during a race scenario but the ease in which it can be adjusted would be open to abuse!! I have checked the rules but still could be wrong but adjusting diamond tension during a race is prohibited.
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Re: Rules [Re: Mark P] #132092
02/17/08 04:28 AM
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There is never a right time to be controversial but since there has been a small discussion here about rules recently have a look at the photo below and ask yourself if this adjustable diamond tensioner is in the spirit of the rules!! The owner could possibly argue that this mechanism is never used during a race scenario but the ease in which it can be adjusted would be open to abuse!! I have checked the rules but still could be wrong but adjusting diamond tension during a race is prohibited.


Mark,

I think, for those who do not know our rules, it would be appropiate to post a link to the rule that prohibit's this.

I cannot find one!


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132093
02/17/08 04:38 AM
02/17/08 04:38 AM
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This it?

http://www.formula16.org/content/view/13/36/lang,en/
"1.7 Rigging and equipment

1.7.1 It is not permitted to adjust the following items while racing: the rake of the mast, the tension of the standing rigging, the angle or length of the spreaders or the position and height of the gennaker boom.

1.7.2 It is permitted to adjust the diamond wire tension while racing or to adjust the items named under 1.7.1 between races."

Re: Rules [Re: Tony_F18] #132094
02/17/08 04:54 AM
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This it?

http://www.formula16.org/content/view/13/36/lang,en/
"1.7 Rigging and equipment

1.7.1 It is not permitted to adjust the following items while racing: the rake of the mast, the tension of the standing rigging, the angle or length of the spreaders or the position and height of the gennaker boom.

1.7.2 It is permitted to adjust the diamond wire tension while racing or to adjust the items named under 1.7.1 between races."


Yes, Thanks Tony, was just going to find it but got distracted.

It clearly states that adjustable diamonds are allowed.


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132095
02/17/08 04:55 AM
02/17/08 04:55 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline OP
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Hi Simon
I thought I was going mad but I knew I had read this somewhere:
Other main rules
* Mid height width of gennaker is at minimum 75 % of length foot.
* Boat must be rightable by any crew either solo or doublehanded
* The rig may not be trimmed between start and finish by other means than sheet, downhaul, outhaul, traveller, mast rotation and halyards systems.
* Only "soft" sails are allowed.
* Using multiple sets of the top three battens to fine tune the rig to the crew (1-up/2-up) is permitted and does not require remeasurement of the sail
* No ballast other than corrector weights are allowed
* The wearing of bouyancy aids is compulsary during (open) Formula 16 races

Therefore it seems as if we have a contradiction in our rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Rules [Re: Mark P] #132096
02/17/08 05:06 AM
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Hi Simon
I thought I was going mad but I knew I had read this somewhere:
Other main rules
* Mid height width of gennaker is at minimum 75 % of length foot.
* Boat must be rightable by any crew either solo or doublehanded
* The rig may not be trimmed between start and finish by other means than sheet, downhaul, outhaul, traveller, mast rotation and halyards systems.
* Only "soft" sails are allowed.
* Using multiple sets of the top three battens to fine tune the rig to the crew (1-up/2-up) is permitted and does not require remeasurement of the sail
* No ballast other than corrector weights are allowed
* The wearing of bouyancy aids is compulsary during (open) Formula 16 races

Therefore it seems as if we have a contradiction in our rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


With my UK measurer hat on I would say that we are using a "sheet" to change the diamond tension.

The general definition of a "sheet" is "a length of rope used to alter the angle of the sail to the wind".


Which in the broadest sense it is doing as mast bend effects sail shape and that effects the angle of the sail to the wind.

If asked to rule on this, I would allow an adjustable diamond setup that was adjustable while sailing.


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Re: Rules [Re: Mark P] #132097
02/17/08 05:08 AM
02/17/08 05:08 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline OP
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May be it's not so much as a contradiction as it is that I have got confused over definitions. When I saw the word rig I instantly thought of standing rigging, but I think in this case rig means the sails. SORRY.

Last edited by MarkP; 02/17/08 05:10 AM.
Re: Rules [Re: Mark P] #132098
02/17/08 05:23 AM
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May be it's not so much as a contradiction as it is that I have got confused over definitions. When I saw the word rig I instantly thought of standing rigging, but I think in this case rig means the sails. SORRY.


Mark; Don't worry; I had to check the definition a few months back when looking at that boat.


I feel I already have enough bits of string to play with woithout adding daimon controls!


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Re: Rules [Re: Mark P] #132099
02/17/08 06:08 AM
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Australia
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I would define Standing rigging as:- All lines/wires used to support the mast.

I believe the ISAF definition is pretty much in line with that. Would have to check to be sure.

So I guess the issue comes down to which of the F16 rules has priority. 1.7.2 states you can adjust the diamond tension during a race.

However in the "main rules" section it's stated that: The rig may not be trimmed between start and finish by other means than sheet, downhaul, outhaul, traveller, mast rotation and halyards systems.

The above rule seems to contradict 1.7.2

I think its a big stretch to say that you are using a sheet to adjust the sails... via the diamond tension.


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132100
02/17/08 06:15 AM
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I would define Standing rigging as:- All lines/wires used to support the mast.

I believe the ISAF definition is pretty much in line with that. Would have to check to be sure.

So I guess the issue comes down to which of the F16 rules has priority. 1.7.2 states you can adjust the diamond tension during a race.

However in the "main rules" section it's stated that: The rig may not be trimmed between start and finish by other means than sheet, downhaul, outhaul, traveller, mast rotation and halyards systems.

The above rule seems to contradict 1.7.2

I think its a big stretch to say that you are using a sheet to adjust the sails... via the diamond tension.


The boat passed measurement at the last event in Holland. It's class legal.


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132101
02/17/08 06:26 AM
02/17/08 06:26 AM
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It may have passed event measurement but that doesn't necessarily make it class legal.


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132102
02/17/08 06:27 AM
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The boat was measured by an ISAF measurer who had a thorough knowledge of the rules.


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Rules [Re: phill] #132103
02/17/08 06:28 AM
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So I guess that makes the "main rules" section of the rule redundant?


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132104
02/17/08 06:35 AM
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It's class legal. End of story.


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132105
02/17/08 06:43 AM
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I know its me talking, and you seem to have something against me and my input is not well regarded, but consider this:-

If I take a 17ft, 80kg boat to a class event. It is measured and in error it is passed and given the ok to race that event. Is it forever considered class legal from that point on?


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132106
02/17/08 06:55 AM
02/17/08 06:55 AM
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Marcus F16 Offline
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Andrew - 17ft & 80kgs is not exactly a similar comparison.

It appears there could be a contradiction, but it will be upto the INternational F16 Association & the F16 Techincal committee to decide.

No point locking horns over this one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132107
02/17/08 06:56 AM
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Well, I assume this boat will be at the event at Mumbles in the summer. Shall we see if it measures then too? I bet it does.

No-one protested this boat at Zandvoort, thus implying that the rest of the F16 owners present believed that the boat was class legal.

Thanks to Mark for highting this possible inconsistancy in the class rule set; we will work to make it clearer in future.



To state the opinion of a class measurer (me);

"Diamond wires that are adjustable while sailing are allowed".


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Re: Rules [Re: scooby_simon] #132108
02/17/08 07:04 AM
02/17/08 07:04 AM
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No desire to lock horns, but my point was that just because a boat passes event measurement does not certify it as class legal. My example was a little obvious but it demonstrated my point. (now all I have to do is make my 80kg 17ft F16... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and hope it gets through measurement... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Are there measurement certificates for F16?


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132109
02/17/08 07:06 AM
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Are there measurement certificates for F16?

Yes.


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Re: Rules [Re: macca] #132110
02/17/08 07:08 AM
02/17/08 07:08 AM
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Yes - I agree, but obviously if the F16 technical committee does not agree with the contradiction, then I guess there is no issue.?

Yes - there sure is a measurement form.


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
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