| Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: Mark P]
#133182 02/25/08 03:26 PM 02/25/08 03:26 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | If Nacra / Hobie were to come into the class it would be good. But if they were to come in planning to change the class, by say upping the Min weight then it would be a disaster for the class. I do not believe there is room in the market for another 16 foot boat around 130kg. We already have one and it's called a Spitfire in the EU. There is also the H16 with a Spi.
Hobie / Nacra building to the current class rules would be excellent news. An extablished builder building boats at 104 / 107 for sailing single handed and 2 up would be very good.
Building heaviy boats for sailing 2 up only would be the end of the class as we have it now.
For single handing all up weight is the driving factor IMO. 104 is OK, 130kg is not.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: Robi]
#133184 02/25/08 03:59 PM 02/25/08 03:59 PM |
Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 549 Knokke-Heist - Belgium Gilo
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Posts: 549 Knokke-Heist - Belgium | I also think Nacra/Hobie or even Cirrus in Europe would boost sales. I also think they won't consider building an F16 at the current weight. EDIT: I'm not in favour of changing any class rules because a 'big' manufacturer wants to enter the class. APHC has also built an F16 to the current rules, they just aren't that knows in Europe als Hobie or Nacra are.
The best thing is to get in touch with Hobie/Nacra pro sailors at events and check out what they think about the concept, class rules, ....
Gill
Last edited by Gilo; 02/25/08 04:09 PM.
| | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: Robi]
#133185 02/25/08 04:06 PM 02/25/08 04:06 PM |
Joined: Aug 2004 Posts: 145 Cheshire, UK Simon
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Posts: 145 Cheshire, UK | I recognise I am peripheral to the F16 class (I prefered it when the Spitfire was in the class), but I'd just say to hang in there - the F16 concept is good. Sailors will decide what's right for them, most likely based on what is happening in their country and local clubs.
If a big manufacturer developed an F16, that would only help. If they built something heavier, or slower, it wouldn't be an F16, unless you dcide it is.
Simon Shadow 067 | | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: waynemarlow]
#133188 02/25/08 06:05 PM 02/25/08 06:05 PM |
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,348 fin.
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Posts: 3,348 | I am not sure the big boys will ever consider the F16's as their market place, they make robust beach cats not racing cats which the F16's are. There are just too few hard core racers willing to spend 10k on a boat and once those hard core have boats then you aren't going to sell many more without changing the design regularly.
Certainly from a previous business I learnt early on you have to look at the mass markets and not the niche market for big number sales. To the likes of the niche manufacturers like Stealth however there lies a small rich market of budding racers, a small enough market not to interest the big boys and yet big enough for small adaptable companies to make a good living.
The only time this situation will change is if one of the big boys decides to make a 16ft robust beach cat at about 125kgs to replace an existing out dated model, their brand name plus loyal customer base will buy in the knowledge there resale value will be high, initial cost not to much, longevity will be good, adaptable 1 up or two sailing and they will only be 30 seconds slower over 1 hours sailing in an emerging racing class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> There is another simpler way, hypothetically speaking. An existing company, let's say Hobie, could simply contract with an existing builder, Vectorworks perhaps; for a number of boats each year and simply "rebadge" the boats. This would eliminate the R&D costs to said company, provide a test run to determine viability, and give the existing factory an outlet for unused capacity. Everbody wins. Further, this hypothetical company might offer existing boat owners the opportunity to "rebadge". The company would gain instant exposure, the boat owner would gain access to a dealer network and class infrastructure. | | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: macca]
#133190 02/25/08 06:38 PM 02/25/08 06:38 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.
BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it.
Last edited by Timbo; 02/25/08 06:40 PM.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#133193 02/25/08 06:46 PM 02/25/08 06:46 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | I don't know exactly what has changed over the years, I know the sails obviously, mabye the rudders and boards? I think the basic hulls, beams and mast are the same. At least it looks the same at a distance, where the Nacra's hulls are quite different from year to year.
Blade F16 #777
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[Re: Timbo]
#133194 02/25/08 06:49 PM 02/25/08 06:49 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
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Posts: 1,021 Australia | Yes, the A3 is a really nice boat. There is one in Australia now and it looks fantastic. However there is a good reason why the A3 is not imported (marketed) by the Nacra Distributor on Australia, its the same reason why the A3 is not actively marketed by Nacra Europe. Margin If you have too many fingers in the pie there just isn't enough to go around. Also I think you might be a little bit out with Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years its more like 12 years... but who's counting hey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> | | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: Timbo]
#133196 02/25/08 06:59 PM 02/25/08 06:59 PM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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Posts: 2,584 +31NL | I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.
BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it. Bad example i'm afraid <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Quote from M&Ms website: Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc. is now manufacturing and selling the A3 catamaran.
The A3 design has been proven on the race course with the 2nd and 3rd place wins at the 2007 Ronstan A-Class Catamaran Worlds in Florida. Elite sailors have complemented the A3 on its consistent speed and competitive feel both upwind and downwind.
Concepts and design enhancements made by Pete Melvin with contributions from Jeremy Laundergan of Askland Engineering have made the A3 the boat to beat in the future. The Morrelli & Melvin A3 replaces the NACRA A2 catamaran. Performance Catamaran is no longer selling the NACRA A2 model, allowing their company to focus on the tremendously popular NACRA Formula 18 (Infusion) catamaran.
Morrelli & Melvin's move to produce and sell the A3 benefits the customer with personal attention to the boat from order to delivery. European and Asian athletes will find the Morrelli & Melvin A3 is very affordable due to the strength of the overseas currencies. Contact Morrelli & Melvin for prices, shipping costs and delivery time quotes.Macca: The name you are looking for is Alado (The Mystere Twister's design is also based on the Tiger). IMHO producing boats like the Stealth on a large scale and for the price it is selling now would be commercially impossible (staff, overhead, etc). If I where a builder and would invest in a design I would want to be sure it is protected and cannot be used by others (Unlike the Blade for instance).
Last edited by Tony_F18; 02/25/08 07:08 PM.
| | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: macca]
#133197 02/25/08 07:02 PM 02/25/08 07:02 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Macca, the Infusion has only just come out over here (well, last year) and the boat before that was only around for one or two years, and the boat before that was a replacement for the Inter 18, which did come out quite a while ago. I was not even talking about the Inter 18 but now that you bring it up, it came out about the same time as the original Tiger, is that correct? 1996?
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: fin.]
#133198 02/25/08 07:09 PM 02/25/08 07:09 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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I think Tikipete has the right idea. Has been in the back of my mind for a long while too.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Hypothetical question?
[Re: macca]
#133199 02/25/08 07:12 PM 02/25/08 07:12 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Macca,
Alado F18 was the original
Now, take care that you will not be going to rehash all old points again, okay ?
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 02/25/08 07:12 PM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
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