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Hypothetical question? #133180
02/25/08 03:13 PM
02/25/08 03:13 PM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline OP
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Would the F16 Class gain more respect and sailors if say either Nacra or Hobie developed a F16. I think most of us would agree that their marketing power and name certainly wouldn't do the Class any harm. I'm NOT trying to fan the flames of a recent thread but I'm interested in knowing how F16 Sailors feel about the future of the Class. Do they see it continuing as it is with just a small group of manufacturers servicing a small market or do people really expect F16's to be on a par with F18 sales in a couple of years time?


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Mark P] #133181
02/25/08 03:23 PM
02/25/08 03:23 PM
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You can't get into this without flames.

I think the F16 class will grow.

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Mark P] #133182
02/25/08 03:26 PM
02/25/08 03:26 PM
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If Nacra / Hobie were to come into the class it would be good. But if they were to come in planning to change the class, by say upping the Min weight then it would be a disaster for the class. I do not believe there is room in the market for another 16 foot boat around 130kg. We already have one and it's called a Spitfire in the EU. There is also the H16 with a Spi.

Hobie / Nacra building to the current class rules would be excellent news. An extablished builder building boats at 104 / 107 for sailing single handed and 2 up would be very good.

Building heaviy boats for sailing 2 up only would be the end of the class as we have it now.

For single handing all up weight is the driving factor IMO. 104 is OK, 130kg is not.


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: scooby_simon] #133183
02/25/08 03:33 PM
02/25/08 03:33 PM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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Its our game, they must play by our rules.

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Robi] #133184
02/25/08 03:59 PM
02/25/08 03:59 PM
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
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I also think Nacra/Hobie or even Cirrus in Europe would boost sales.
I also think they won't consider building an F16 at the current weight.
EDIT: I'm not in favour of changing any class rules because a 'big' manufacturer wants to enter the class. APHC has also built an F16 to the current rules, they just aren't that knows in Europe als Hobie or Nacra are.

The best thing is to get in touch with Hobie/Nacra pro sailors at events and check out what they think about the concept, class rules, ....

Gill

Last edited by Gilo; 02/25/08 04:09 PM.

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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Robi] #133185
02/25/08 04:06 PM
02/25/08 04:06 PM
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Cheshire, UK
Simon Offline
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I recognise I am peripheral to the F16 class (I prefered it when the Spitfire was in the class), but I'd just say to hang in there - the F16 concept is good. Sailors will decide what's right for them, most likely based on what is happening in their country and local clubs.

If a big manufacturer developed an F16, that would only help. If they built something heavier, or slower, it wouldn't be an F16, unless you dcide it is.


Simon
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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Mark P] #133186
02/25/08 05:36 PM
02/25/08 05:36 PM
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I am not sure the big boys will ever consider the F16's as their market place, they make robust beach cats not racing cats which the F16's are. There are just too few hard core racers willing to spend 10k on a boat and once those hard core have boats then you aren't going to sell many more without changing the design regularly.

Certainly from a previous business I learnt early on you have to look at the mass markets and not the niche market for big number sales. To the likes of the niche manufacturers like Stealth however there lies a small rich market of budding racers, a small enough market not to interest the big boys and yet big enough for small adaptable companies to make a good living.

The only time this situation will change is if one of the big boys decides to make a 16ft robust beach cat at about 125kgs to replace an existing out dated model, their brand name plus loyal customer base will buy in the knowledge there resale value will be high, initial cost not to much, longevity will be good, adaptable 1 up or two sailing and they will only be 30 seconds slower over 1 hours sailing in an emerging racing class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: waynemarlow] #133187
02/25/08 05:47 PM
02/25/08 05:47 PM
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Australia
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So the first question is really: Will F16 reach its goal with the current builders?

If yes then who cares if the big builders come and play?

If he answer is no, then the following needs to happen:-

I think the class needs to work out why a major builder is not involved or even expressing a desire to be involved.

Then the class should assess if they want to make the changes needed to get the big builders interested.

If the answer is no, then the class will just have to be happy with the current state.

And the big builders can continue to make robust beach cats and not these mysterious racing cats Wayne speaks of!


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: waynemarlow] #133188
02/25/08 06:05 PM
02/25/08 06:05 PM
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Quote
I am not sure the big boys will ever consider the F16's as their market place, they make robust beach cats not racing cats which the F16's are. There are just too few hard core racers willing to spend 10k on a boat and once those hard core have boats then you aren't going to sell many more without changing the design regularly.

Certainly from a previous business I learnt early on you have to look at the mass markets and not the niche market for big number sales. To the likes of the niche manufacturers like Stealth however there lies a small rich market of budding racers, a small enough market not to interest the big boys and yet big enough for small adaptable companies to make a good living.

The only time this situation will change is if one of the big boys decides to make a 16ft robust beach cat at about 125kgs to replace an existing out dated model, their brand name plus loyal customer base will buy in the knowledge there resale value will be high, initial cost not to much, longevity will be good, adaptable 1 up or two sailing and they will only be 30 seconds slower over 1 hours sailing in an emerging racing class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


There is another simpler way, hypothetically speaking.

An existing company, let's say Hobie, could simply contract with an existing builder, Vectorworks perhaps; for a number of boats each year and simply "rebadge" the boats. This would eliminate the R&D costs to said company, provide a test run to determine viability, and give the existing factory an outlet for unused capacity.

Everbody wins. Further, this hypothetical company might offer existing boat owners the opportunity to "rebadge". The company would gain instant exposure, the boat owner would gain access to a dealer network and class infrastructure.

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: fin.] #133189
02/25/08 06:15 PM
02/25/08 06:15 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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I think that would just reduce margins.... Or more likley increase retail prices to retain margins.


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: macca] #133190
02/25/08 06:38 PM
02/25/08 06:38 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.

BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it.

Last edited by Timbo; 02/25/08 06:40 PM.

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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Timbo] #133191
02/25/08 06:43 PM
02/25/08 06:43 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Is it really the same Tiger? As I understand it there have been a lot of changes to the boat, but perhaps not very visible ones.

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133192
02/25/08 06:45 PM
02/25/08 06:45 PM
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St Petersburg FL
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I also heard that the A3 is no longer being produced or marketed by Nacra. Rumor though so it can be very wrong.

Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133193
02/25/08 06:46 PM
02/25/08 06:46 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I don't know exactly what has changed over the years, I know the sails obviously, mabye the rudders and boards? I think the basic hulls, beams and mast are the same. At least it looks the same at a distance, where the Nacra's hulls are quite different from year to year.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Timbo] #133194
02/25/08 06:49 PM
02/25/08 06:49 PM
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Australia
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Yes, the A3 is a really nice boat. There is one in Australia now and it looks fantastic. However there is a good reason why the A3 is not imported (marketed) by the Nacra Distributor on Australia, its the same reason why the A3 is not actively marketed by Nacra Europe.

Margin

If you have too many fingers in the pie there just isn't enough to go around.

Also I think you might be a little bit out with
Quote
Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years
its more like 12 years... but who's counting hey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: macca] #133195
02/25/08 06:59 PM
02/25/08 06:59 PM
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Australia
macca Offline
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The Tiger you buy new today is very different from the older ones.

I dont think the older ones even had sub decks.

The Tiger is actually a french design, the name escapes me now. But you still see the original boats in France and they look identical to a Tiger, same deck mouldings even!

maybe its an Aldao??

Anyhow the point is that Hobie could have sub contracted the build of the tiger to the original builder and put a Hobie sticker on it, but it just doesn't make sense to do that when you are a volume manufacturer and you have the skills and infrastructure in house.


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: Timbo] #133196
02/25/08 06:59 PM
02/25/08 06:59 PM
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Quote
I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.

BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it.


Bad example i'm afraid <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Quote from M&Ms website:
Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc. is now manufacturing and selling the A3 catamaran.

The A3 design has been proven on the race course with the 2nd and 3rd place wins at the 2007 Ronstan A-Class Catamaran Worlds in Florida. Elite sailors have complemented the A3 on its consistent speed and competitive feel both upwind and downwind.

Concepts and design enhancements made by Pete Melvin with contributions from Jeremy Laundergan of Askland Engineering have made the A3 the boat to beat in the future. The Morrelli & Melvin A3 replaces the NACRA A2 catamaran. Performance Catamaran is no longer selling the NACRA A2 model, allowing their company to focus on the tremendously popular NACRA Formula 18 (Infusion) catamaran.

Morrelli & Melvin's move to produce and sell the A3 benefits the customer with personal attention to the boat from order to delivery. European and Asian athletes will find the Morrelli & Melvin A3 is very affordable due to the strength of the overseas currencies. Contact Morrelli & Melvin for prices, shipping costs and delivery time quotes.


Macca: The name you are looking for is Alado (The Mystere Twister's design is also based on the Tiger).

IMHO producing boats like the Stealth on a large scale and for the price it is selling now would be commercially impossible (staff, overhead, etc).
If I where a builder and would invest in a design I would want to be sure it is protected and cannot be used by others (Unlike the Blade for instance).

Last edited by Tony_F18; 02/25/08 07:08 PM.
Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: macca] #133197
02/25/08 07:02 PM
02/25/08 07:02 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Macca, the Infusion has only just come out over here (well, last year) and the boat before that was only around for one or two years, and the boat before that was a replacement for the Inter 18, which did come out quite a while ago. I was not even talking about the Inter 18 but now that you bring it up, it came out about the same time as the original Tiger, is that correct? 1996?


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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: fin.] #133198
02/25/08 07:09 PM
02/25/08 07:09 PM
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North-West Europe
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I think Tikipete has the right idea. Has been in the back of my mind for a long while too.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
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Re: Hypothetical question? [Re: macca] #133199
02/25/08 07:12 PM
02/25/08 07:12 PM
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North-West Europe
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Macca,

Alado F18 was the original


Now, take care that you will not be going to rehash all old points again, okay ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 02/25/08 07:12 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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