Tim, I was using your "3 boats" as my reference, so yes there have been 3 Nacra F18 designs over the lifespan of F18. I think the inter 18 was released about 1996 but I might be out by a year or so.
The Infusion was released in 2006.

Might be in the back of your mind but I think its a long way further back in the minds of the big builders <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am just assisting with the discussion, remember the original question in the thread was asking where F16 sailors thought the class should go in the future and if that future involved the large builders.
I am offering a point of view that may give light to the reason big builders are not involved currently and some pathways to getting them involved... If that is what the sailors want.

I understand.

Wouter

I think the future of the F16 class is to continue to be the F16 class. It was formed on some sound scientific considerations and an appreciation of the situation were our target group is finding themselves. I.e. sailors looking for a versatile recreational racer and/or a versatile boat for high performance pleasure sailing.

Therefor the goal and path of the F16 class are clear and it shouldn't matter much at all who produces F16 boats to forfill the F16 demand. Or on who joins or who leaves.

I fail to see significantly larger attractive benefits with a big builder then with a small builder. I'm not impressed much by say the Inter-17 or FX-one classes. If that is all that a big builder can offer then I much rather have "a small" builder like VWM. More impressive results and less complaining.

I think the identifier "small" and "big" are intepreted in a way that hints "inferiour" and "superior" when in fact there is more reason to intepreted it the other way around.

Lets face it guys an amateur designer called Phill Brander simply outclassed the "greatest design minds" of the big builders, with a shoestring budget. He is a "small" designer but created a "big" design !

I think all discussions on where we want to be in the future combined with whether a big builder will join or not are pointless. It is up to a builder to decide to join us and not the other way around where the F16 class will decide to join a builder.

We have been doing well without ANY support from a big builder in the past and there is absolutely no reason to believe that we won't be doing fine without them in the future.

Big builder support for a class is highly overrated in my opinion. I refer again to the I-17 and FX-one classes. Wew have gotten far more meaningful support from "small" builders.

Wouter

Good point. If you consider that the value proposition of a class involves some combination of the merits of the boat itself and the benefits of being able to sail with lots of others of the same class (the "network effect"), I would say that for the F16 that balance leans a little more towards the merits of the boat itself than it may for some other classes. Of course growth is good and we should pursue it, but as far as my own enjoyment is concerned I've been perfectly happy sailing (until late last season) as the solitary F16 in a fleet of N20/F18/F17/Tornados.

From a lurker's perspective
Let's say Hobie? Maybe never, or at least not for another three to five years, absolute minimum. The NA class association had enough power to squelch the addition of the spinnaker to the H16. They will try to protect this boat 'til death. H16's, as of now, can't be built fast enough to meet demand (local dealer ordered seven for this year, will receive two, five are on back order). Silently, among the Hobie class racers, your support is building. I'd say you have at least a 20% approval rating now. Mind you, at some point, people will make a move. Don't change a thing!!! As Mary stated (in another thread) the current weight is a HUGE selling point. USA Hobie sailors don't need a EU made boat, too costly, and for the simple exchange rate (dollars) reason I doubt the Tiger will ever approach any appreciable share of the overall Hobie Class racing. Will Performance offering an F16 sway any of the Hobie class, maybe, but doubtful. The infrastructure is what's hard to replace. I say hold your ground and be patient, follow the growth of the A Class. At some point (hopefully sooner than later) the F16 may be considered as a step up from the H16 and make sense to Hobie...hopefully.

Interesting question... What is the value added if you have a large builder behind your class?

IMO, a large builder does not help that much in growing the class.

Tornado has Marstrom, Probably not considered a big builder and the T class runs their class racing. Not a widely popular boat but the Olympic circuit drives the most active competitive racing circuit in the world. Marstrom does not know the meaning of the word “marketing: (Bottom line… no support for the “big builder is essential notion”)

A class, Has LOTS of small builders contributing new designs. No one builder dominates and the class runs their life. Much better grass roots support of the rank and file for the A class. Marketing is by the builder who wants to go racing on his boat around the world (Asby, Marstrom, Melvin etc etc) marketing is by word of mouth by a few fanboys…. The rank and file really markets the unique performance advantage of A class (positive spin) or exclusivity (negative spin) of the class. (No support for the big builder is important notion)

F16 class… A couple of small builders… no marketing campaign… A HUGE and vocal fanboy base that never misses a chance to talk about the boat… resulting in a bit of a mismatch between the noise on the wires… and noise on the water. (no support for the big builder notion.)

F18 class, Lots of builders, large and small… BUT… uses the marketing campaigns of the big builders to promote the class as the working man’s.. not quite Olympic class… The marketing approach is to put Tornado pro’s into the puddle with amateur sailors. This is perceived to strongly influence consumer choices… eg guys who are constantly trying to measure up. (This is the only example that I can come up with where the big builders have a positive impact on class growth)

So… in my opinion… the big difference is the marketing dollars invested by the big builders. The two large builders have more visibility to the consumer and the big marketing PR campaign helps with making the class visible. This has proven to be the big advantage to growing the class. However, In the USA… the class growth certainly seems to have stalled on the east coast so obviously more marketing is needed!

Do these big companies help the class organization more so then the small builders?
Sure!

Performance Cats in the USA. Probably considered a large builder ... Controls the class rules under the SMOD principle ... Not much owner provided class organization and leadership ... Basic attitude... Jack Y will make the nationals happen and he does. (F17 F18 and N20 classes). Certainly contributes to the marketing BS in the F18class… previously hyped the N20 class… then the F17 class by getting current DN Worlds champ onto those boats.

Hobie (USA and Australia) Clearly THE large builder in the game and the creator of the SMOD philosophy for cats. Times are changing of course and for our purposes (high performance racing), it would seem that the Hobie 16 and Tigers are the last fiberglass boats they will build… No doubt they lead the world in the marketing hype with the factory team in F18’s. The class association is viable runs the racing for the rank and file.
The factory has made substantive donations to the class (see big trailer etc etc)

Capricorn/Taipan…. Probably considered a large builder. Time have changed for them as well and they play the marketing game to a bit lesser extent. Currently the only one of the three that does not have a single handed spin boat class to sell…. (thus the question to the F16 class).

Do the big builders contribute to the self destructive behavior of the F18 Class because of the business plans they are running?
Well (flame suit on) YES!!!
The F18’s separate into Hobie Tiger nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods)… the Nacra F18 class runs their own nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods). … and the NAF18 class can’t seem to control the troops. So… for 08… you have three nationals scheduled. Nobody can explain why this makes sense.

The notion that each of the builders host a coastal 3 day open (all types of F18’s invited ) championship and the NAF18 class hosts a one week long North Americans seems to not be a good solution.

So IMO, it’s tough to make an argument that a big builder push is critical. Could a big builder contribute to class growth… sure.. How much compromise is needed… ah well that’s the crux of it now!

I dunno, but I wouldnt call VMI a small builder. Yeah they build the blades in a small corner of the plant but the blade is only a small venture of the company. They do plenty of big big stuff. Specially military vessels.

Last time I was at the plant they were about to remove the deck of a 60+ foot racing power boat. IMO that is not small. The machinery and man power they have is amazing. By no means small.

Only the people that own F16s get it.

I didn't buy my Blade because I wanted a maintsream boat. Yes, I want the class to grow but I want it to be because of the merits of the boat not who makes them. The light weight ensures the manufacturers use high quality materials and processes.

If you don't like fast, light, race boats then move on. There are a lot of heavy tanks on the market already.

The "threat", if you can call it that, is to the Tiger. The F16 solves the crew/weight issue.

I think the H-16 will be around a long, long time.

I wouldn't call it a threat, I'd call it the sensible alternative that can't be ignored. I'm also not saying the H16 will ever go away, the alternative Hobie boats, at a price not predicated by EU exchange rates, was this last year narrowed down to...nothing.

There's our class motto! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And the Draw for me was more about the ability to switch off, race Uni or two up, depending on conditions and crew availability. The light weight was the second consideration and the price was the third.

I could have easily bought a used A cat, which is lighter, but I like the spinnaker too much to give that up. Simply put, the F16 is the lightest, cheapest, most flexible (crew wise) platform out there today, and where I live there is a fleet.

If there were absolutely no other F16's near me, I would have bought something else, what ever the popular boat was I guess, because I do not like scoring on corrected time. That is probably what is holding back growth in some areas, availability of F16 fleets to race with, but with every new boat sold, there is a new fleet building.

It will take time, it took the F18 about 4 years to catch on over here in the USA and that was with both Nacra and Hobie pushing them, hard. But every time a F16 beats a F18, uncorrected, the F18 skipper has to wonder if he made the right choice! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's an interestijng point as I was the opposite. I bought an F16 because I wanted something light, fast and fun to sail. There are no other active F16's at my club - there is one that never goes out as far as I can see. We have one Inter 17 and 3 shadows, 2 tornados, loads of Dart 18's that never move, a handfull of Hurricane 5.9's and loads of Sprint 15's (Dart 15).

If I had wanted fleet racing I should have bought the Sprint 15. I wanted a light, high performance single hander with a Spi. Only choice was a F16.

I ordered my Stealth R (Little Feat) in 2001 when F16's hadn't been conceived. And although recently sales have been fairly good I am still surprised at how slowly the Class is actually growing in Europe for no apparent reason hence the thread. How many professionally manufactured F16's are going to be sold in Europe this year compared to the F104? If we are not careful we might gain an elitist title for all the wrong reasons.
Please don't get me wrong my heart is in the right place and I want the Class to gain the sustainability and credibility it deserves but it's not going to be an easy ride and things might have to change.

An effective way is to sell your cat 2nd hand and buy a new boat for yourself.
The threshold for people to buy a 2nd hand boat is a lot lower than a new one.

Reality check boyz....

Everyone here is whining about something for nothing. The manufacturers are very interested in the F104 class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Get over it.

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

true... but still need the money for a new one

[putting on his moderator hat]

Bob, please be constructive and polite, not provocative.

[taking off his moderator hat]