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Sail design #133459
02/27/08 02:52 PM
02/27/08 02:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline OP
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waynemarlow  Offline OP
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I know its a bit of a black art but can anybody recommend a good sail design software package ( hopefully freeware )as I plan to have a little go at producing a sail to try and learn about the sail. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Re: Sail design [Re: waynemarlow] #133460
02/27/08 04:44 PM
02/27/08 04:44 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Sail design is no black art, but some sailmakers certainly want to keep a veil of mystique to it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I would not call it good, but there is sailcut CAD. http://www.sailcut.com/Main_Page While I dont think it is good, it will do the job decently once you learn it's quirks. If you get serious with it, we can discuss things to watch out for before you finalize the design.

Other software packages, which professionals use, costs money. Prosail is one package, SmSw6 is another. Both have a learning curve which is probably steeper than sailcut CAD.


What sail are you planning to have a look at? I have certainly always tought the hours we put into sailmaking was worthwhile both for the learning and for the bank account. As I have said earlier here, you develop a very different eye for sailtrim after you have designed, built and recut a sail a few times. We wrote a small article on one of our sailmaking projects some years ago: http://www.thebeachcats.com/Article213.html
That sail was based on a design Marcus Towell shared but which we adapted for our mast and sailing conditions.

Re: Sail design [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133461
02/27/08 05:11 PM
02/27/08 05:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Maybe next year will be the year I try this. a dude has to have his hobbies.
However, I understand that I will understand sail trim better after making my sails but what if I don't know what they should look like to start ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Sail design [Re: PTP] #133462
02/27/08 05:16 PM
02/27/08 05:16 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Then you learn the hard way, by fixing them <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Seriously, what we did besides getting a head start from Marcus was studying literature like "High performance sailing" which have some specific data on what a high performance sail should look like. Pictures of the top guys also helps when starting out, but you soon notice that very few pictures are actually helpful when designing your sail. Loads of fun, and all part of the learning process <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Be advised though, it takes time and work!

Re: Sail design [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133463
02/27/08 10:08 PM
02/27/08 10:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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Marcus F16  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Rolf is correct - be prepared for a lot of time wasting. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

People who are seriously considering making their own sails from computer programms need to establish how are they going to get the data they have created to panels & then put together to create the sail.

The simplest way is choose a software package that enables you to create the panels the easiest way you can.

One way is to print off the data values & plot your own panels. Or alternatively by taking the plot files the software creates to a local sailmaker or visiting someone that has plotter/cutting equipment to create your panels.

Personally I have been down all the available roads & have mates who are sailmakers that have provided great support, but I would recommend using "sailcut" for your first sail & plot out the panels on the floor at home & put them together yourself.

Rolf has rightly pointed out that "sailcut" has limitations, but is also very simple & will not confuse
people. Definitely the cheapest way for a first timer - like Rolf was. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Prosail & Sandy Goodalls programme's are really good, but unless you are using them all the time, be prepared for some disaster's first <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Spinnakers are a different storey alltogether!!! John Alani has experimented, maybe he could offer some comments?

If anybody is genuinly interested in trying sailcut to make their own F16 mainsail, I can send you a design file to get you started.


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Sail design [Re: Marcus F16] #133464
02/28/08 04:24 AM
02/28/08 04:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Quote
Spinnakers are a different storey alltogether!!! John Alani has experimented, maybe he could offer some comments?


Well, perhaps he would, if there was anything useful in his results? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Sail design [Re: Jalani] #133465
02/28/08 04:28 AM
02/28/08 04:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Jalani  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
The most successful proponent of home made spins in our class is Dave Tugwell. If Tuggers would care to share some of his thoughts, ideas and results you'd all be very impressed. It was because of his work that I experimented and, I have to say, was nowhere near as successful as he!


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Sail design [Re: Marcus F16] #133466
02/28/08 06:55 PM
02/28/08 06:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline
member
isvflorin  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
I remember having a look at sailcut a few years go, was not into sailing back then. Anyone wanting to get into CAD should check out Rhino3d. By far the most precise, advanced and precise modeller out there that can be used with limited knowledge of CAD. I would say Sailcut+Rhino is a good start.
Marcus - could you send me the sail design you are talking about - first for study and will find use on the box rule drawing also.

www.rhino3d.com


Florin
Re: Sail design [Re: Jalani] #133467
02/29/08 06:51 AM
02/29/08 06:51 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 61
davidtugwell Offline
journeyman
davidtugwell  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 61
I have made loads of spinnies. Some can be seen on the F16 web I think. Isn't John Alani using one. I used sailcut and then modified the last files in cad. There was a luff problem turning a symm to asyym. Maybe the updated software would help. I have loads of dxf files for the spinnies which i am happy to put into the public domain if anyone wants them.

More interesting is mainsail development.I have been playing with double skinned mains to give a wing effect (like a paraglider) and mainpulating each skin by rotating the mast: essetial for tacking! This changes the windward and leward skins. There are loads of patents on this but no-one had used the mast rotaion before. Hopefully this post will prevent any patent being put on the idea.

Have a look at up to date paraglider shapes.

Let me know your thoughts.

Last edited by davidtugwell; 02/29/08 06:58 AM.
Re: Sail design [Re: davidtugwell] #133468
02/29/08 07:38 AM
02/29/08 07:38 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mark P  Offline
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Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
I like your train of thought for going upwind but what happens to the mainsail foil shape going downwind, it could produce such lift that your VMG would go out the window? Anyway, 'I know nothin' and I'm sure we'd like see one of your prototypes soon. Maybe the Global Challenge for instance <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Sail design [Re: waynemarlow] #133469
02/29/08 07:54 PM
02/29/08 07:54 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mark P  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Hi Wayne
Is this one of your earlier attempts of kite reefing <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You have to laugh cause it only goes wrong when there's a camera pointing at you!!
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
135703-WaynesKite.jpg (164 downloads)
Last edited by MarkP; 02/29/08 07:56 PM.
Re: Sail design [Re: Mark P] #133470
03/01/08 12:15 AM
03/01/08 12:15 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 61
davidtugwell Offline
journeyman
davidtugwell  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 61
Mark,

I think Wayne was using one of my spinnies. You know I said there was a bit of a problem with the luff..............

Re: Sail design [Re: davidtugwell] #133471
03/01/08 04:38 AM
03/01/08 04:38 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mark P  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Quote
Mark,

I think Wayne was using one of my spinnies. You know I said there was a bit of a problem with the luff..............

Only a slight hick-up with the luff I see.. But I would be more concerned about the 75% mid size rule!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Sail design [Re: Mark P] #133472
03/01/08 05:23 AM
03/01/08 05:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
enthusiast
Marcus F16  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Its got NACRA on the snuffer sock..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Sail design [Re: Marcus F16] #133473
03/01/08 07:33 AM
03/01/08 07:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
W
waynemarlow Offline OP
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waynemarlow  Offline OP
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Posts: 893
Er actually my previous boat was a Nacra 5.2 which I had put a F16 spinny on, worked well, plus the local Nacra agent had some super cheap snuffers available so I guess it had to go on the new second hand Stealth which came without any spinny package ( actually its showing my green credentials, just recycling things ).

Anyway Nacra make great boats and I thought that if I put a bit of advertising on the front I might become the sponsored hotshot for Nacra in the F16 fleet but as I've now been outed as to regards my boat handling skills then I think that might be out of the question. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Sail design [Re: waynemarlow] #133474
03/01/08 01:52 PM
03/01/08 01:52 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
David,

I would be very interested in having a look at some of your spi designs. Especially with your comments on the design and some pictures of the sail in use. There is just too little hard information around on what sails should look like.
I have some ideas on what I would like our next spi to look like, but actually discussion them with other homebuilders would be great!

Marcus, have you had the opportunity to use the "yellow feber" spi any more?

Re: Sail design [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133475
03/03/08 07:05 AM
03/03/08 07:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
enthusiast
Marcus F16  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Recut the yellow one & its in a boz with a new snuffer head & new spiin sock.......been there on my work bench since zandvoort... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Wasn't sure if you still wanted it after selling the T?


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Sail design [Re: Marcus F16] #133476
03/03/08 07:09 AM
03/03/08 07:09 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Oh, well. I dont know. No use for it just now. If/when we do the B20 project it might come in handy.

Re: Sail design [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #133477
03/07/08 12:43 PM
03/07/08 12:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline
member
isvflorin  Offline
member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania


Florin

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