But with extra $ you can have your Viper and still be on min weight. That's an expensive path to tread.

This post may be provocative and inflammatory: <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I hope the moderators are asleep. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I always thought that the purpose of a formula class having a minimum weight was so that no boats could race that are lighter than that. There is no restriction on how heavy they can be. Right? So what's the problem?

Here may be the problem: Light weight is better for moving around on the beach, but it is not necessarily better in all conditions on the water.

As somebody has already mentioned, a heavier boat is better in light air and chop. And, of course, a heavier boat may be able to handle bigger wind and sea conditions than a lighter boat.

So, from all these discussions, it sounds to me as though the F16 Class would really like to make the F16 as one-design as possible and, therefore, should have a MAXIMUM platform weight as well as a minimum weight. Close down the box.

If heavier boats became the majority and the lighter boats became the minority, well, the majority might rule when it is blowing 20 knots and it's too much for the lightweights to race.

Do you mean like that Frankenstein T5.7 of yours? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Well yes actually but the price is always going to be a major sales factor (like it is now) but in your case you could do what you like with your money as long as you remain within the box. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Im a newcomer to yor forum and a potential newcomer to your class. SO hears my two cents worth.

I believe the f16 has the potential to be great. I find the thought of sailing a "modern" boat with a kite and my light crew very attractive.

However i dont think that publishing the weights of the current boats will achieve anything constructive. It does appear that most of the builders are having trouble making the class minimum wieght tho. I cant speak for any one in the boat building industry but i would assume that they want to keep the price of the boats at a level that will sell boats.

If any one thinks that the wieght of a sailing boat doesn't matter then they are just kidding themselves. Its comes down to basic physics. Nothing to do with light wind, heavy wind, chop, no chop. A boat that is 1 kg heavier, than the next boat, has to move 1 kg of water more than the next boat over 16 ft of travel. Weight is critical to a sailing boat.

Wieght is also critical to the price of the boats. A sensible minimum wieght is essential for the f16 class to encourage sailors and manufacturers to participate.

Cheers Sue

Sue if you are so worried about 1 kg difference then I would suggest racing sail boats may not be for you, you are going to be so uptight about my boat being 5 kgs lighter than yours that you won't want to compete with me just in case I beat you over the water.

One could almost say your argument is a womans way of thinking as I'm sure that you are going to conveniantly forget that I'm probably 25kgs heavier over all if you take into account my lardy frame.

Get over it people, this is a real world we live in, we ain't ever going to be able to race on a perfectly equal overall weight as it simply will never happen. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Im not worried about 1 kg wayne but i sure would be worried about 5 kgs. The 1 kg was just an example for your physics lesson. Crew weight and boat weight are completely different.

You guys really seem to struggle with the concept of weight. And thats what will weigh the class down if you dont address it.

I would draw your attention to the f16s big brother as Macca already has. I guarantee nearly every competitive f18 will be within 5kgs of minimum weight. The Capricorns are generally lighter and carry corrector weights.

Are you suggesting that the massive worldwide f18 fleet is not living in the real world?

xxx Sue

Sue the real world is that the small builders are down to weight already, the big builders for what ever reason aren't, Macca wants the big boys to be able to come down and play on their terms, now I think that is a retrograde step for the class and probaly unfair on the small builders who have supported the class from day one.

From practical experiance here in the UK which probably has the biggest fleets actively racing against each other over the last 5 or more years, it matters very little about boat weight and crew weight, the rules as they stand allow the best sailor / s to win. Yes some days are going to favour the 2 man crews equally some days will favour the solo crew, but on that great big overall picture the best sailors will win.

You for example having a light 2 man crew have an extreme advantage because you have an extra sail and an extra pair of hands, but so what, I would still go and race with you, and that perhaps is what is so good about the class, its very laid back and friendly, come and enjoy by sailing with us but please don't try and change things, things are pretty good as they are. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"Are you suggesting that the massive worldwide f18 fleet is not living in the real world?"

I'm suggesting that the F18 is just too heavy for some of us and the 1 or 2 up versatility makes the F16 a preferable platform. I want a light boat. If I were willing to lug around some amount of lead, it would be as well to sail a monohull.

I'm skeptical about the numbers of boats and sailors. If total numbers are dwindling, how can any class be "massive"?

Sue,




How big can the performance difference be between a "257 kg boat+crew" and a "262 kg boat+crew" ?

Especially when the crews themselves can differ by as much a 40 kg !

We argue and know from on the water experience that such a 5 kg difference is all but negligiable.

Besides you can have minimum weight F16 if you want to and it will still be cheaper then a competitive F18; for example upgrading to a carbon mast is enough. Everybody was offered the possibility of a min weight boat but alot of us have chosen to go with an aluminium mast anyway as our sailing skills aren't good enough to fret over a few kg of boat weight difference. In my case I wasn't worried to much 14.8 kg either ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That is the argument we're having here.

Wouter

How big can the performance difference be between a "257 kg boat+crew" and a "262 kg boat+crew" ?

Especially when the crews themselves can differ by as much a 40 kg !

We argue and know from on the water experience that such a 5 kg difference is all but negligiable.

That is the argument we're having here.

Wouter [/quote]

I don't understand WHY you guys keep arguing about this. You have a class rule about minimum boat weight. All that means is that the boat cannot weigh LESS than that. It does NOT mean that all the boats in the class have to be at minimum weight. The whole idea of a formula class is for it to be inclusive of as many boats as fit into the specifications. And a 16-foot boat that weighs 1,000 pounds could call itself an F16 if it wants to.

I don't see any basis for arguing with Macca about this. Tell him to buzz off.

He has been told any number of times. He refuses to leave. I'm now ignoring him.

His nonsense affects the uninitiated. It is a disservice to the F16 class and to Catsailor.

But then, so is Curry's taunting.

Gosh Mary, a couple of days ago you were defending his actions, about time even you got peeved with his constant barracking. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey lets give mr Curry the credit he deserves.

He has never repeated himself endlessly. He taunts, watches the resulting spectacle and then everybody moves on.

I can still see the fun in that. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Hey, I still don't see anything wrong with the topic or the debate. All I am saying is that if you F16 guys don't like the subject, just don't take the bait, and don't participate. It takes at least two to argue. Seems pretty simple to me.

Most of you class members have now been listed on the other thread, so I am suggesting that all of you go to Macca's user profile and click on "Ignore this user."

Wouter I don't really follow your constant comparisons with F18's; do you think these are potential F16 sailors that just need to be convinced by your wonderful machines? In the UK I would have thought that Spitfires, Shadows and H16 saiors are the likely target market with Fathers(or mothers) sailing with children or alone. To me that seems a real strong selling point and one that might attract me in the future. Sailing as I do at the moment (me 90kgs, good, regular and reliable crew at 60 ish) then the F18 suits me perfectly and I've certainly not been blown away by an F16 at any UK event. If I was lighter and needed to sail singlehanded regularly then the F16 would certainly be on potential shopping list, probably along with Shadow and FX-1. In terms of weight I don't mind the F18 around the dinghy park, it's a fraction of the time I spend on the water. However I would be concerned over whether or not I could right the boat alone, my F18 I would say not in the light stuff and the same for a Spitfire - for me that would be a compelling reason for the class to control the minimum weight so you do not lose a chunk of your potential market.

Right! So that should end the entire debate right there.

Hear hear. The weight and the cost of the boat needs to be controlled. Carbon masts send the price of the boat way past that of an F18. Weight and price go hand in hand. Most of you have said that yourselves.

xxx Sue

Actually Sue,




I said that the F16's INCLUDING a carbon mast upgrade are still cheaper then competitive F18's.

We have given examples of that many times but most strikingly are the Stealth F16's that come standard with a carbon mast for 9650 GBP = 12.742 Euro's in the race version (= most expensive).

Same applies to VWM Blade F16 imports to EU with a carbon mast upgrade. The Aussie Blade F16 is now under minimum weight with the Alu mast and doesn't require a carbon mast upgrade.

Wouter

This Forum doesn't seem to be that "laid back" or that "friendly". I guess ill just have to keep sailing my crappy production boat at 127 kgs crew weight. At least its the same weight as all the other crappy productions boats of the same class.

Im very disappointed with the classes overall attitude.

xxxooo Sue

Doesn't anyone else smell something fishy around here? I wonder if 'Sue' has been known to sail a certain Taipan 5.7?