Sue is Macca spelled backwards... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The F18 sounds like the right boat for you. Some of us, however, don't have your crew situation. There's the rub. If you had no crew how would you race?

The F16 is a versatile solution for those of us with crew problems.

Additionally, some lighter weight crews (2 people) find the F18 cumbersome.

The H16 sailors of my acquaitance are either commited to the boat until death <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />, or want an inexpensive boat. Where they are teaching a young person, they don't want the complication of a spinnaker.

What so just because i share similar veiws, i must be the same person. I sail a H16. And I just ran the numbers and i can get a spanking new tiger for cheaper than the stealth the viper and the blade with carbon mast. According to the viper website i cant get a minimum weight one of them.

Look it wasn't my intention to put you guys offside. I just dont wnat to spend a truck load of money on a boat that would be left wanting by a boat that was 20 Kilos lighter. I don't have the time or the inclination to build my own. So unfortunatly i would have to rely on one of the Big Bad manufacturers to supply me with a boat.

From what ive seen the class would rather keep the major manufacturers out to suit a few homebuilders. Therefore majorly limiting the growth of the class.

Sue

Agree absolutely but that's my point - The F16 and F18 really appeal to different markets (imo) which is why I don't really follow the shots at the F18. As I said, if I had no regular crew (or one of the two padwans takes an interest in a few years time) than the F16 would certainly be on the horizon; which is probably why I'm taking an interest now.
And to answer Mark's question on a now locked thread; for me the class would NOT have to have Hobie or NACRA on board BUT, if the F104 class became a big player then that might influence a potential choice. That said I think the F16's I've seen around the UK look good, are sailed by enthusiastic and sociable sailors so I'd like to see the class evolve.

Sue, if that's your real name, I wouldn't describe a H16 as a 'crappy production boat' well, not unless you were referring to the quality? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H16s are BRILLIANT boats! They are simple, fast(ish) and sooooo much fun to sail! I can't think of a time when I haven't enjoyed a sail on a H16. Honest truth!

However, to use a H16 as an example of boats being equal within a class is a classic mistake. Show me five H16s and I'll show you 5 different weights with a range of 5Kg plus between them. Hell, I knew of a newish (2001) H16 that had one hull almost 2Kg heavier than the other! and it was like that from new.

Getting so wound up on weight is just not sensible. F16 is a boxrule class, the boats are not identical, that's the point! We set max and min dimensions as appropriate, if your boat fits into the box and is above minimum weight you can race as F16. An optimised F16 should be built to the maximum and minimum tolerances but in practice that is difficult to achieve and that is how it should be. Having said that, the latest -2007 onward- VWM, Stealth and FCA boats are within a couple of kilos of or even slightly below minimum and require corrector weights. If you want to get right down to minimum weight with a design(since that is your fixation) you may well have to sacrifice some hull volume as that equals less laminate area but that will affect your performance in some conditions. You wouldn't sacrifice layup or strength as that would be completely pointless. You could save a few kilos in a careful choice of rudder stocks etc. You could decide not to take that 2 litre bottle of water with you when you go out, don't fit a compass etc. etc. A big saving would be a carbon mast - around £800 complete here in the UK. (That's about £200 more expensive than an aluminium one) A relatively cheap upgrade when you look at what the As spend on weight saving.

The point is it's a 'run what you brung' class. No, the boats aren't equal in all conditions (that would be a different type of class, it's called One Design) but without doubt, proved time and time again, the biggest difference between the boats is the people on board. In my 40ish tears of competitive sailing I've sailed many, many different types of catamarans (and dinghies) but I haven't ever had as much (consistent) fun as I've had with my F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh. BTW I don't know where on earth ANYONE got the impression that the F16 rules were open to discussion or change by a straw poll on an open forum. There is a due process for proposing a change to rules and it has to be well constructed and logical in it's reasoning with sound facts and research to back it up. Not unreasonably, the members then get the opportunity to vote either for or against the proposal - it's called DEMOCRACY.

"The Class" couldn't care less if the Big Boys get involved or not. There is a minimum boat weight. Most of us have no idea what our boats weigh because it is nearly impossible to weigh them correctly at home, and there are very few reliable scales available at regattas. I can honestly say I have NEVER seen a scale at any regatta, that includes the Alter Cup.

So here's the deal with the F16 class and boat weights. You either want a light, fast, 16 foot boat with the ability to race Uni or 2 up, with a spinnaker, or you don't. There are other classes available to you, go there.

If you think being at min. wt. is a big deal, pay your money and get as much carbon on board as you can, and keep weighing your boat, and you will have no problem getting to min. wt.

There was a guy who Pimped his F18HT back a few years ago, maxed it out per the rules, rumor is he spent about $50,000 doing it. And it killed the class as nobody else wanted to spend that kind of money to play catch up. Is that what you want?

I'm happy to sail a stock factory boat and trust the builder has done a good job trying to keep them all even and at or near min. wt.

Now this is getting entertaining... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Adrian, I didn't take Wouter's comments as a shot at the F18 - in fact he has always been very complimentary towards the 18 as a class, weight notwithstanding. I think his point was just that the cost of an F18 is an important point of comparison when evaluating some of the misinformation that gets thrown around about a supposed imminent arms race in the F16.

Fair enough Mark, my comment was slightly based on a post that Wouter subsequently deleted but also that to my mind the two classes are very different and don't really bare comparison. As and aside my Capricorn was less than 6 months old and cost less than a brand new F16 would have when I bought it.

In the UK a more realistic comparison is probably the Spitfire (16ft long, almost f16ish) and costs just under £9k but weighing 140kg. Interestingly its little sister, the Shadow weighs in at 95kgs is made of kevlar but costs almost as much at £500 less. Neither of which offer (imo) the vesatility of the F16 but do perhaps highlight some of the cost considerations in building light boats.

It may be just coincidence, but here in the Southeastern U.S. interest in the F18 seems to have fallen off as the F16 picked-up.

Hi all,

If we want to come out to the world as a professional racing class I DO think that meeting the minimum weight is important for manufacturers.
I personally do think that 5kg can make a difference, certainly on a higher level. I don't think 1 Tornade is 1kg overweight on the Olympics, nor are F18 on their worlds...
If we say that 5 kg aren't that important, why hold on to the weight to badly?

I don't want to shake things up and I do think discussing weight should be done after proper examination (discussion with none F16 manufacturers and F16 manufacturers, top sailors, ...) and with a smaller group of people.

Gill

Personally, I don't want to be part of a "proffesional racing class" ala Tornados or even A cats and some of the F18 Pro's. It gets much too expensive as everyone chases the illusive -ultimate boat-, ultimate sails, minimum wt, carbon everyting, etc.

I would prefer it remain an amature class, with people who race for fun, not for career advancement or, God forbid, Money! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I second that.

Aye!

This is for the other forum readers, just to provide (counter)evidence the claims :

http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-hobie-polyester-55/

Scroll down to bottom and find :

Hobie cat Tiger STX : 15.613 Euro's
Hobie FX-one extreme : 16.162 Euro's


Everybody can find Stealth F16 pricing here (still current) : www.stealthmarine.co.uk :

9650 GBP = 12.750 Euro's (incl. carbon mast)

Blade F16 prices are around 14.250 Euro's with Alu mast resulting in 1363 Euro difference that allows them to upgrade to a carbon mast and still be the below the quoted Tiger (basic setup) in cost. If My notes are correct then upgrading them with a Stealthmarine carbon mast will even have them under 15.000 Euro's; but you would have to do that upgrade yourself. See John Alani's comments about the Stealth carbon mast earlier in this thread.

Wouter

Spot on Mark !

That is exactly the reasons for my "F18" referals !

Wouter

Hey Timbo,

The best part of your example ... :




... is that during the first big race against other, more conventional, 18HT's HE LOST !

$50,000 in upgrades for a result that he could also have had with a plain $16.000 stock boat.

Wouter

It was a beautiful boat, though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let me paraphrase that : you could buy a SECOND HAND Capricorn F18 for less then a BRAND NEW F16 !

And you think this says something because .... ?

Wouter

Ohh yeah !

Somebody with a carbon fetish would have an instantanious heart attack or an unsuppressable need to mate with it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter