Finally, rules ballot has been closed. Results will shortly be posted as there is one vote that may have been counted twice. We're looking into that now. Only one vote per boat is allowed. We don't allow two votes per boat as that would inflate our numbers.

Depending on the outcome of the our little investigation the number of voters is either 35 or 34 (boats) The distribution over the world is fairly equal. In Alfabetical order

Aus ; 40 % EU ; 30 % USA 30 %

The ballot results are expected to be posted on this forum within a day.

Wouter

Dear fellow class enthousiasts,

The rules ballot has been completed and validated and at the last moment a misunderstanding was put right. Therefor the time has come to present the outcome of the Formula 16 class rules ballot.

35 voters distributed over 3 continents : Australia, USA and the EU have voted. One voter abstained and will not be counted.

The outcome is :

88,2 % of the voters is in favour of the new Formula 16 rule set ! (= 30 votes)

11,8 % of the voters prefered the now old rule set


By any standard (51 % , 2/3rd and even over 75 %) this ballot has proven the new Formula 16 rule set to be favoured with plenty of room to spare.

This number of 35 voters is mirrored in about 35 boats making the number of people involved even larger than just 35 persons. One vote per boat was allowed.

This is a convincing acceptance of the Formula 16 rule set and it is the direct result of the efforts of a few class officials. Especially the Australian Class representative Phill Brander has layed the foundations on which many compromises were reached and clearly to the satisfaction of almost all. His efforts are much appreciated and the class wants to publically thanks him in this manner.

Furthermore the class want the thank the three builders involved for their openness and willingness to discuss any elements in the rules at length. Also for their willingness to cooperate with eachother and see the issue from the perspective of "the other side". Such an attitude by Stealthmarine, AHPC and Blade was instrumental in achieving this result. It was also instrumental in working up a good phone bill of a few hunderd dollars, but that was the price to pay.

And lastly the class wishes to thank the class enthousiast that have waiting quite a few weeks for this evaluation proces to be finalized. Clearly from time to time it must have seem like an endless wait when behind the scene there were intense discussions. Thank you for your patience and your private e-mails giving us, the class officials, your opinions and suggestions. Actually quite a few of those made into the new rules; and all sizes great and small.

Like my class collegue said and he spoke for all the builders and class officials when he said that "... we have a very good set of rules now and these will enable us to grow to a world wide class in just a few years"

A sign of this potential is the growth of the fleet in South East asia (Signapore and Thailand). We were doing Amerika, Australia and Europe but over the last 18 months the Asian continent quickly formed a fleet which is to be taken seriously.

There is even more good news, the Formula 16 class is very hopefull that the communication send to the Bimare yard will settle the dispute relating to the Javelin 16 design. But more importantly the SCHRS (ISAF) handicap systeem has just accepted our proposal to eliminate the final hurdle and has awarded the Formula 16 class an official handicap ratings based on our class rules. Go to www.schrs.com and see for yourself. The rating ofcourse one for the solo setup and one for the doublehander setup. The doublehander rating is equal to the Formula 18 class. And our good relations with the Texel committee has resulted in the very swift adjustement of our texel ratings now that the new rules have been accepted.

With kind regards,

Formula 16 class

wow.. the F16 is faster than the A!!!! like I believe that NOT

OK-It looks like the F-16HP class has decided to exclude one of their foundation boat manufacturer by changing the mast height max to 8.5m from 9.0m and by raising the minimum boat weight. It is obvious that the Bimare 16 and Bimare Javelin 16's specification were considered in proposing these rule changes. The Javelin 16's specs are the same as the BIM 16 which is a F-16HP "foundation boat". So much for the foundation of the F-16HP class.

It will be interesting to see what Bimare and its supporters decide to do about creating a class for their new Jav 16 and older Bim 16 to compete. I am in line for the first Javelin 16 to hit the US and plan to help out in anyway possible.

I regret that the F-16HP class has chosen to change their rules to exclude my forthcoming boat, but I do look forward to being a pioneer member of a new class which embraces my new boat. I am going to recommend that the all current F-16HP legal boats be included in whatever new class is formed to include the Jav 16. This whole situation may have a silver lining?

Steve Jones

Huh !?!

Where does this comment regarding the A-cats come from ?

Wouter

Clearly you have not been in contact with The Bimare Yard or Kirt Simmons with regard to this issue. I know you haven't been in contact with me about it. And also you haven't been paying close attention to this forum page; Otherwise you would have known better.

Bim 16 sail number Ned016 proofs you are wrong. That boat will be sailing with us. You can travel the same road as the owner of Ned016 did and yes your javelin 16 sailnumber USA001 will not be treated differently.

With this I don't understand how you can claim that ;" ... has chosen to change their rules to exclude my forthcoming boat, ...".

With regard to starting your own class around the Javelin 16 design; it that an official statement ? If so than could you please inform Valerio Petrucci of the Bimare Yard of your (and your friends) decision. Because this descision would clearly superseat the current communication with the Bimare Yard.


Having said this I have a few questions for you ;

Which boat are you going to sail next season; the F18HT jav2 you have bought or the Javelin 16 you have "on order" ?

Reference : "... recently, when I was changing boats from an A-Cat to a F-18HT. .... , but what really matters is that I am going F18Ht now." (18HT forum : http://wfo3.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1033649791 )

What aroused your interest in the Formula 16 class, mr Jones ? From your posts on the 18HT forum which can be seen at :

http://wfo3.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=usersrecentposts&user=Nacracando

It seems you are a Jav 2 sailor.

But in catsailor posts you are a Jav 16 sailor; look at ::

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/dos...archpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts

Did you buy both boats ? But than why do you say on 16 okt 2002 in post :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...amp;Main=11789&Search=true#Post11871

"I am VERY excited about this new boat, as the "smaller" F-18HT is just the ticket for my son. Once he grows, then we can go F-18HT or other larger cat."

When on 3 okt 2002 in post :

http://wfo3.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&num=1033649791

You indicate that you have bought a Jav 2 F18HT.

What is it Jav 16 or Jav 2 or have you bought both designs together ?

Now when you ara a Javelin 16 owner (on order) why didn't you vote in the Formula 16 rules ballot. I mean you are very vocal about your opinion on the matter but despite that you choose not to participate in the vote. Why, it would have been the ideal way to influence the outcome ?

Please answer those questions for me; I would apprecaite it if you could clear up my confusion here.

Regards,

Wouter

Wouter,

You seem to be very interested in what kind of boat I have chosen to sail, so I will try to straighten you out. First, I purchased a AHPC manufacturered Flyer A-Cat. This boat lasted one day, before it suffered structural failures in BOTH hulls. So, I decided that that was enough and convienced W.F. Oliver and AHPC to take my faulty boat back. I then test sailed and ordered a F-18HT, after having decided that it would be a great boat for me. However, I was concerned about sailing it with my child. Soon after I placed that order, the news of the Javelin 16 came to light for me. I love the idea of this smaller boat and since I will NEVER buy another Australian High Performance Catamaran product, the Taipan is out of the question. Since I really enjoyed the sailing time on the Jav 2, I talked W.F. into letting me switch my order to a Jav 16. He was not hard to convience, since the Javelin 2 boats are sold out until the after the Worrell 1000.

So that is the story of how I came to order a Jav 16. W.F. tells me that I probably won't get my boat until spring, but it should be worth the wait! As for my problem with your F-16HP class, I have read a copy of the e-mail that you sent to Bimare after your new rules were set. W.F. was kind enough to share it with me. I think you know that the contents of that correspondence could only be considered unacceptable to those involved with the Jav 16. I do not speak for the Bimare boatyard nor for W.F. Oliver, Bimare's US representative, but as a future Javelin 16 sailor I would not want to participate as a "second-class member" of your organization.

As far as a new class for the Jav 16, several influential US sailors are working on a concept that is much more inclusive than the F-16HP class.

With regard to my chosing not to vote in your poll, I would not vote in my country's presidential election if I where an Iraqi citizen either! Why bother?

This "broken record" hopes to see you on the water in the spring!

well...
from your site frankly.. so unless I'm reading the ratings incorrectly

Bim 18 Class A 1.00
Assuming this is the BIM A class boat.. Equivalent to Auscat 3 + 4s which appear to be equal to the flyers and 5s in outright speed

Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.97
Makes the solo F16 0.03 faster than an A..

And almost as "fast" as the
Bim 18 Double 96 which rates at 0.96 (is this the F18HT?) equal to the
Mattia Cat Boat 0.97
Mystere 6.0 0.97
Tornado 24m2 spi 0.97

faster than
Nacra 6.0 0.98
Nacra 6.0 Raid 0.98
Tornado 1.00 (guess this is the "classic" rig)

That Bim 18 class A is a category 2 A-cat of 100 kg's. With the F16 cat boat being 104 kg's and with a spi I would expect the F16 cat boat to be faster than a category 2 A-cat of only 4 kg's less weight and without a spi.

The SCHRS rating system names the modern A-class but doesn't assign a rating to it; it only states "see measurement form".

And yes that Bim 18 Double 96 would be the predecessor to the Javelin 2. Although thsi boat has a spi of only 18,75 sq. mtr. which is only little over 1 sq. mtr. more than the F16's

With respect to the others :

Mattia cat boat is a heavy one 196 kg's and something like the 18HT rig on it.

That mystere 6.0 is also not a light boat ; no less than 218 kg's it has a big rig though but than again 218 kg's !

And tornado with spi you quoted is the old standard tornado but an added spi the Current international tornado has a rating of 0,94 which is again some 3 points faster.

And so on.

Seems to me to be a hard enough rating to sail too but not impossible or strange when to compared to other designs.

Wouter

For the record;

The mail was send to Bimare BEFORE the outcome of the ballot was fixed; no after as you say.

Further you have confirmed that you are aware of the ruling and the fact that you and your Javelin 16 are NOT excluded from racing in the Formula 16 class.

Than you have kindly confirmed for me that mr. W.F. Oliver has taken notice of the ruling and that both you and he can correctly inform the other sailors interested in the Javelin-16 design about it

Next to this I think that what is acceptable or not is a personal decision of the individual sailor. But clearly if one owns a Javelin 16 as specified by the Bimare yard then one should have no problems racing it again F16's. That is unless validating your boat is to much effort. Your call !

With regard to being treated as a "second-class member" I would like to inform you once again you are subjected to the same requirements as for example the Taipan 4.9 owners. In fact they are more limited as you; as they are required to fully comply with their Taipan 4.9 one-design rules which are far more restrictive on allowed dimensions than your Javelin 16 is. And the Stealth (R) owners are limited by their ISAF measurements. And the new Stealth F16 by the formula 16 rules. So, forgive me for not feeling sorry for you.

And "influencial US sailors" can only sail one design at the time.

Now the situation is simple; Join the Formula 16 class and race with us, or start up your own class and let us be.

Now you don't have to like it or like me, you may even hate me for it because I don't care. But no matter how much we twist it and look at it from different angles the Formula 16 class WILL ensure fairness of racing. And if that kitchen is too hot for you than maybe you should find a different restaurant to eat in as all the other customers seem to be happy with the food that is being served (= ballot).

Regards,

Wouter

P.S. in one of your HT posting you said that you thought that there was to much negatism on the forums. I take it that your comparison of me with the Iraqi president is your example of a positive posting ?

W..
Sorry not up to-date with northern style cats..

But it still is a huge stretch to believe its possible and a fair rating!!!

The Tornado in classic rig is rated in Au at 69 on the VYC yardstick < http://www.vic.yachting.org.au/default.asp?Page=1352&MenuID=Handicaps/1023/0 >with the "big rig" holding a reliable 66 rating.. (18teens are 68.5) The A is reliably rated at 71.5.. Interestingly the T4.9 sloop has a "reliable" 74 rating as opposed to a "probable" 76.5 for the T4.9 cat..

What the European rating asks us to believe is..
That the cat rigged kite-added T4.9 has become far faster than the sloop with kite.. Not only this but.. Now far faster than the Tornado in classic rig or even with one that has an added kite thus faster that the A...

Based on the http://www.schrs.com/ website ratings we should expect to see the F16/T4.9 with genacker holding a VYC rating of cat rigged 67.5-68!!! Thus roughly equal to the T5.7 with spin (67.5).. Like I believe that NOT!!!!

If you believe this I have a bridge for sale in Sydney going cheap..

Stewart,
Problem is ISAF SCHRS is a paper-based rating system with a mathematical formula which swims upstream against common logic.
I punched the following numbers into their spreadsheet just for fun :
A 16ft boat with a 25m mast, 75sqm mainsail, 25sqm jib, 100sqm spinnaker. Weight of boat is 25kg.
The rating it spits out is 0.44, more than twice as fast as a Tornado.
Anybody care to take this boat out for a sail in anything more than 3 knots ? Of course logic tells you this boat would not be feasible, ISAF says it would just be helluva fast.
IF it could be sailed, that is !

Other rating systems which are based on real performance data collected over time are probably more realistic, the Aussie system looks like it works this way. Some boats are fast in light breeze,
others in stronger wind, some like choppy water more than others. No numbers based system will issue absolutely fair ratings, or even sensible ones IMO. Issues such as hull shape & fullness, rocker, bouyancy etc
all have a marked effect on making one 16ft boat sail completely differently to another, yet ISAF`s system only looks at overall length & waterline length. Their system isn`t bad, it just can`t possibly cover all the variables
in different designs.
You`ll find that once F16 regattas actually start to happen on a truly open-class basis ie Taipans, Stealths, Bimare`s, etc on one racecourse, one boat will shine through as the fastest, even although the ratings are all the same.
It may happen that one boat excels in light wind and not in the rough. Only practical comparisons will tell.

Aah yes, and then there`s the question of the nut on the tiller.

Just go racing, have fun & don`t let anyone finish in front of you. Handicap, Shmandicap.

Cheers
Steve

Steve, That was my point..
The rating proposed for the cat rigged F16 by the web site is ridiculous...