The masts are made by Southern Spars (who acquired Omohundro in 2001). They originally were made at Omohundros facility that I think was in California or nevada (they also made Farr 40 masts). Southern then sent the tooling to New Zealand and just last year sent it to South Africa. With each move, the cost has gone up.

I had written a letter to the Class Assoc. (I think it went to Mark Biggers) expressing my concern and recommending Forte as a more economical alternative. I think Mark sent it on to Performance. I definitely agree that the cost of the new boat needs to come down in order for the class to survive, but I also don't want to see the class splintered by going to a stick that does not perform. I was however very surprised at the price of a new F17 with the aluminum mast. If the 20 saw a similar reduction, it certainly couldn't hurt the class.

Perhaps all of those interested should express our opinions to Performance. I know it is not a member run class, but it can't hurt that the manufacturer knows where the class stands.

T

If you could buy a "better" aerodynamic shaped alum. wing type mast, would the better aerodynamics on the leading edge of the sail offset the heavier weight?

Talk amongst yourselves.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I used to use one on my TheMightyHobie18.( An E-Z mast stepper ). Yes they do make stepping easier but they take about 15 minutes or more to get on your boat properly and my rigging time is already over an hour. I have so many lines, wires and "stuff" goin on at the front of my cat with my spin, anchor lines, bridal etc… getting in there to fiddle with the mounting of the ginpole is a pain and a ½.

Another problem with that is my trailer is set up to put my boat on sterns facing my car. This allows me to have the mast at an angle for easier stepping and i would have to move the "trailer beams" around since the rear ones have cradles and not rollers.

I have found with a “helper” line tied to my halyard, If I find someone on the beach to give me a little help the line… it is much more manageable. I can handle it without to much a risk of a hernia.

I was just curious about the carbon mast. I can’t see spending 2x on the mast, compared to what I paid for the entire catamaran… but I can always dream.

I'm not convinced there would be a lessening in the performance of the boat - just because it's carbon doesn't make it fast and I'm certain that given enough time and development, an aluminum stick could be made as fast or faster than the carbon stick. However, there will be some performance difference and that is not good for the class - but it's better than death.

If you went to a different carbon mast supplier, I think you are still going to see some differences as the production methods, tooling, and/or materials will experience some differences. Either way, you're going to have to deal with some sort of change.

I agree, there will definitely be some degree of change. Hall would probably be able to produce the closest thing to the existing stick, but also would probably be the most expensive (still cheaper imho). I would guess that forte could do a blank for quite a bit less, but i'm sure it would have different bend characteristics and weight (since they use an Aluminum T mast as the mandrel), but I'm guessing it would still be pretty close. I've never seen the newer F18 extrusions so have no idea on the weight of those, but you can probably get really close to the carbon stick in terms of weight (my old alum. T mast was pretty close to the current I20 carbon stick in terms of weight).

If they can get the price of a new boat down to the $13K range I think we would all welcome an alum. stick. If it would still be in the $16-17 range probably not so much. It seems when things get over $15K it gets alot harder to justify. Has anyone heard anything from the factory on this?

I've been casually quoted, by 2 dealers, a price of $23K for a new 20...
I'm decrease to 16-17 would be amazing! That's the price of a new Infusion!
I think the day of seeing these boats under $15K is long gone.

$23K???? Ouch.

Can't sell boats at that price. $16-17 I guess is the best we can hope for.

Capt. Kirk quoted the new price at $19,600 without trailer two weeks ago at Mid Winters.

I think I can safely say I'd recommend this shop too. I know Mark, and in addition to being a catsailor, he's devoted to his work, and craftsmanship. His crew is a good bunch too.

hmm well my friend asked Kirk and thats what he was told and I confirmed it with Kirk at midwinters to get the response "yea all said and done, its around there"
Maybe all said and done means with a trailer? In your quote, was he including taxes, shipping from the factory and etc?

Really funny to see my talking points being expressed by my greatest opponents.

I guess I was just too much ahead of my time when I was rediculed for expressing such views.

Wouter

Well I can't say that they are that durable. I broke one at Nationals in Tybee one year. I was surfing down a wave and slammed into the wave in front. My crew blew the chute but the stress of the stop was too much and the mast snapped. I wasn't too pleased about it since I had chartered the boat.

Anyway I picked up and stepped that F16 blade mast and was amazed at how light that aluminum mast was. I could almost pick it up and step it like a laser.

I don't want to go back to a 60lbs mast. That wouldn't be acceptable in my book. Stepping my P19, H20, and N6.0 masts were a beast.

Mike Hill

The i20 mast shape could be improved as well, a pear shape is fatter than a true wing shape, so it you make a mast in a wing shape its going to have less surface area and less material, (alum or carbon) so it will be lighter in that regard. Its also going to be stiffer by nature, more material in the fore/aft axis.
If the i20 class does go to Forte, they should demand a true wing mast shape, dont go with the T section he's using now.

I'm a fan of the Forte stuff, its durable and less expensive. A $1000 wing mast secion would be awesome, think about a second mast for you Acat to go out in a blow, or to use when its windy, make it stffer. Anyway a Forte wing mast would be a good thing.

Bill

Yeah, your's sucked but it was the only boat-standing breakage I've ever seen on an I20 stick though.

Well since the question became (and sorry about the hijack) "how to keep costs down so the class survives" then we need to examine how to keep the class alive as it relates to the mast.

I don't think that changing the mast drastically would promote class health. If huge performance gains are made by changing the stick, you've obsoleted every used boat out there until it goes to the new stick.

Wouter,
We are all aware of the pro/cons of carbon vs aluminum. You dont have to remind us.

I dont think an aluminum i20 mast would be lighter than the current carbon one, it will be less expensive, but probably heavier. The wall thickness on the i20 mast is pretty thin, so its not like they are over engineering them.

If they use a domestic supplier, go with a wing mast, they will use less material and the mast will be better and cheaper.

Bill

My point was that if you are going to change, make it a wing mast.

Here's a kick in the face.... M20 mast? 9k!!

I asked Jim Young back in October a/b putting that stick on the I20. His reply, "nah we're not going to do it b/c the carbon masts stand up to the crazy stuff you all do on the 20's better." Next thing I know two months later the rumors a/b an Al mast start flying.

I have no problems so long as the performance hit is negligeble... I think most people would feel the same way. The newer alloys and shapes could provide us with a mast that might sacrifice a couple of pounds but save us a few more in the pocket book. A new one will however probably obsolete the older mains but that's already been done with the recent spreader change.

I've done some CRAZY stuff with an I20 and never had a rig fail but I've seen a couple go. We were right behind Mark Murry when they broke their mast in the '02 W1k. It broke in a gust when they let the main go. Also saw one in Tampa at Hobie Midwinters East WAY back when the boat first came out. Was blowing 30 and I think someone eased the main in a gust... POP!! I've been to hell and back under those sticks... take care of keeping proper structure and not whipping it too hard and it will hold up for quite a while.

G'day Bill I understand the alloy being stronger in a wingmast without much mast rotation but doesnt it bend excessively if you've got a fair bit of rotation and main on hard? I had heard that the main benefit of carbon was its quick snap back into position after a gust etc would the new alloys match that?
regards

mark is a good [censored]. spent a long time working with him.