Looking at the Javelin 2 almost makes ones mouth water! Formula 16 HT never really made any sense to me because I felt why not go with a little more length with an 18' cat, but the Javelin 2 and the F18HT makes great sense. The F18 is great but why not go for lightweight instead of more weight. So it will be interesting to see how this boat holds up in the Worrell. I think Bimare has a winner!

"Formula 16 HT never really made any sense to me because I felt why not go with a little more length with an 18' cat"

Then why not a 20ht?
That way the 18ht wouldn't make sense, right?

Of all the differences in these classes, the waterline length is probably the least important.
If the f16 class never made sense to you, you probably either aren't sailing at 310 lbs or less, or you don't want to race solo on occasion.
These 2 classes are completely different in design and intent. Both "make sense" if you are aware that some people weigh more than others and some people would like to be able to race both with and without crew.

The 18ht's are a really great, fast, hi-tech boat for 2 average size guys who always race together.
The F16 fit's another niche - light guys, women, husband/wife teams, and people with undependable crew. Unless you only want 170 lb sailors, sailing doublehanded, what doesn't make sense about the F16 idea?

Michael Coffman
t4.9#32

Sorry you did not like my statement. I realize you have a lot invested in the 16HT movement. It is great that the 16HT can do all that you say it can, but not like other boats cannot do the same as the 16HT!Yes why not 20' & why not 120', what ever! Also can't the J2 handle 315 lb teams? So it seems fairly light weight teams can handle it as indicated in Sailing World mag. Actually Sailing World reporter indicated the boats ideal team weight is 315' - 345', so I assume lighter or heavier teams could sail it, but it would be interesting see hear if this is so. Oh yes my wife and I are racing at 275 lbs. combined, and I regularly race solo, and not on a F18HT boat either. I think the J2 is a beautiful and exciting boat and the wave of the future, I just don't think the 16HT is the wave of the future, and am not saying the boats in the 16HT group are not great boats. It's purely my point of view, which don't count for much so why worry?

I know I'm probably going to get yelled at for suggesting this, but has anyone added a set of wings to the 18HT to make it (more) single-handable?

Enjoy the good press the 18ht has brought to catsailing. Why bash another class, just to make the 18ht look better? These boats are not an "either or" situation.
You're welcome to your opinion. But if you make a public statement, aren't I welcome to give mine? Especially if you say something negative about a boat that, frankly, I might have a little bit of experience with?


I just don't want people to get the idea that the F16's are just some shorter, slower version of the 18ht's - the differences are intentional, and the boats are designed for different purposes.
You may be right - boats designed for 2 guys may be the wave of the future.
But without lightweights, women, and people without crews, that sounds like a much smaller future. I hope you're wrong.

I'm not sure what you meant when you said "not like other boats cannot do the same" -
Which other lightweight spin. boats allow doublehanded crews to be competetive at weights under 310, and allows for sailing (all class legal) singlehanded w/spin? I know of none with all of this going for them. Which of these aspects is unimportant to you?

You chose to bring the F16 class into this (not sure why, nothing in the Sailing world article said anything about them), and to do so in a negative light. Therefore I chose to answer. Why so surprised?

I'm certain that you meant nothing but the best for the F16 class, and that you in no way meant to discourage people from taking an interest in the class, but honestly, I've gotten tired of hearing people who've never sailed/raced the boats bash them.
I hope that you can understand that, and take my comments in that light.


Re. the weight thing: Wow - the 18ht can "handle" crew's a mere 40 lbs heavier than mine, and the ideal is "only" about 55 lbs above mine. How does this mean they are going to be better for us 275 lb'ers? Why do you assume that lighter teams are competetive on the 18ht's, when even the importer has said the boat likes weight (330-340)? Reality check - light IS 315 on those boats. Boats have competetive weight ranges. I have yet to speak to anyone who has sailed an 18ht who said they thought 275 was anywhere near ideal for that boat. Some people might be willing to make a compromise and sail the boat at less than "ideal", in the same way heavy teams have sailed H16's for the sake of competition. That doesn't mean they aren't at a disadvantage.
How many have you seen race them at 275? How many female 18ht owners are there? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, man... if the extra sail area and waterline allow heavy teams to be competetive, great. But it also puts lightweights at a disadvantage. This isn't a bad thing about the 18ht's, it's just one of the things that defines who their sailors will be.

The f18ht's are all-out race boats, meant for two strong, moderately heavy people. That excites the hell out of me, and I'd love to crew on one.
But those really important advantages don't necessarily make them an ideal boat for a lightweight husband/wife team or for sometimes-singlehanders.

Why not accept that different boats are better at different things?

Thanks,
Hope you don't take offense... I really am just trying to set the record straight.
Michael Coffman
t4.9 #32

Make the F18HT Look better? I don’t even plan to buy one, but it does look like a fabulous boat. And I wasn’t making a public statement, I was making a personal statement/view, and not saying I am right or wrong. As for a negative statement? I said ''Formula 16 HT never really made any sense to me because I felt why not go with a little more length with an 18' cat,'' this is a negative statement, I am bashing it? Sorry you feel that way about it, and yes I have not sailed a F16HT nor do I plan to, still nothing against them. Hay didn't I also make a statement about the F18 group as follows: The ''F18 is great but why not go for lightweight instead of more weight.''

My statement about other boats, I meant the Isotope, the Dart 16, the Hobie 16, etc., etc. So are you going to rip on these classes and tell me how much better the F16HT is. The designs I indicated offer a lot to, in other areas you have not even mentioned. As for which aspect is unimportant to me, well I could careless about a spinnaker even though I use one on my cat (I actually have two different types) and class legal is not that important to me in many instances sense most of what I do is recreational sail. What does matter to me is durability, ease of set up, no centerboards, racing opportunities on any continent, accommodates my friends with disabilities, etc., etc. Clearly, the F16 class does not meet every aspect and is not the perfect boat for everyone, as it is sometimes presented.

As for the weight issue you are really reading into what I wrote. Actually, the importer indicated 315 lbs to 345 lbs for the J2. I am not saying the F18HT can handle 275 lbs just saying that this is what my wife and I race at. I do accept that different boats are better for different things and people, and believe there are a lot of 16 ft. designs out there that offer a lot that the F16HT does not offer. There are a lot of designs to choose from that is for sure.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

It's wonderful to see people arguing about which is better -- 16's or 18's, because in my view as a woman/crew-type person, anything smaller than 20 feet is GREAT! So keep this thread going, because it is great publicity for both formula classes. It is nice to see the trend back toward smaller boats, that are now becoming more popular again because, thanks to new technology, smaller can also be fast. And who cares which is faster, 16 or 18, if you are racing one-design in a specific formula class? If we could get out of this "my-boat-is-faster-than-your-boat" syndrome, we could get back to have some fun racing again and people could choose boats according to what works best for them. And anything that will facilitate couples sailing together is going to be good for the sport.

"Surf"-
Since you brought it up- We had two of the crews at the Taipan 4.9 Nationals (both boat owners) with disabilities and one at the F 16HP Nationals. I know both of these persons would disagree with your statement regarding the F 16HT and Taipan classes as not being appropriate for them. You seem to fail to acknowledge that increasing the size (and weight) of the boat (presuming one is going for maximum performance) results in a corresponding necessary increase in all the "loads" involved and in the weights of all the boat components. Just look at the size of the booms, shrouds, blocks etc. on a 165 lb. "A-cat" for example compared to that of a similar size Hobie 18, Tiger, N 5.5, etc. The F 18HT's, "A-cats", F 16HP's and other lightweight boats all take advantage of this relationship and they are all great but aimed at different purposes within classes that allow personal boat type selection with "heads up" racing. By the way, we had Isotopes participating in the F 16HP class with us at Spring Fever at our invitation. Every boat is a compromise, that's what is nice about ALL the Formula classes in that they allow a particular customer to select the boat that best meets his/her desires and compromises (within the Formula rules set) yet still belong and race with a larger group of people.

Happy Holidays!

Kirt

Mary - you're right - everything you said is what I was trying to get across... speed and power aren't everything, if it means you limit sailing. Different boats fit different people.

Surf... It's good to be able to have discussions with people who can discuss things they're excited about and stay civil. I enjoyed talking to you, and the only reason I felt it was necessary to say anything relates to the recent (anonymous) posts about the class. Nothing to do with you, and certainly not fair to you, since you were just expressing your thoughts. I hope you enjoy your sailing... I'm gonna go work on my boat now
Michael c
t4.9#32

Let me clarify about disAbilities - Spinal Cord Injuries to an extent that one can not sit-up independently or walk. From a broad view any boat is accessible from a narrow view of significant disabilities only a very limited number of multihulls are accessible and in the beach cat area only one is accessible. I can go on and on with this topic of disability level, diagnoses, etc. but I will save you all from that by not going there.

All your technical jargon is great. How about this to simply it, if I buy a new so called high tech cat I would buy an 18 ft. cat and lets leave it at that (kind of). So am I anti 16 ft HT cats no but I was thinking I sometimes sail with some heavy guys that puts our total weight up to around 350 lbs, which is way to much weight for the 16HT. Seems to me it would be harder to accommodate a heavy team on 16HT than a lightweight team on a 18HT. So I am wondering if anyone else runs across this and if you had to choose would you choose the 16 or 18 HT. Many of use simply cannot afford to get to HT cats. I know this is kind of an extreme example but heck I am told there is no stupid question, well I hope this is true.

Once again, no negative angle is intended with my comments.

Everyone's got their opinion about boats, cars, toothbrushes, cola brands, etc.

As far as cats go, Sea Sprays never made much sense to me. But I've never seen such an enthusiastic group of sailors as Sea Spray sailors.

The 18HT should make any redblooded sailor's mouth water. But since I sail mostly solo or with a child, it doesn't made sense for me. We've all got different needs.

A while back Dermot from Ireland who sails an F16HP had some interesting comments about advantages of smaller cats:

"The Shadow has been designed specifically as an easy to control singlehander. Also Yves and Reg did a lot of testing to ensure that it could be easily righted by a light crew. The SCHRS number is 1.06 . Because the cat is under control at all time, a good sailor can sail it very well to it's handicap rating.
I would like to elaborate on this point.
Having raced the F18 Hawk for the last 5 years, I sailed my first event in the Spitfire last weekend, in a mixed fleet of 22 cats, mainly Hurricane 5.9, 2 Hawks + Dart 18s.
The first two days racing was on a short trapezoid course, with a lot of hoisting and lowering of spinnakers. As soon as we slowed to raise or lower the spinnaker, the larger Hurricanes (no spinnakers) powered over the top of us , very frustrating, we finished 3rd overall.
I'll get to the point.
On the 3rd day there was a 20 mile passage race around Belfast Lough in a force four to five with quite large waves roling in from the open sea.
We had a bad start. The first leg was a close reach and we hung on close behind most of the Hurricanes. We passed everyone on the next leg, which was downwind and rounded the final mark in the lead. We had to tack a few times up to a headland where we freed off and close reached home. We tore along that reach and held off all but one Hawk which we had not noticed tacking out into stronger wind earlier. We beat him on handicap and won the race.
What am I getting at?
While I am still reasonably fit, at 54 I am slowing down a bit. If I had been sailing the Hawk in those strong conditions, I would not have been able to drive it as hard as I did the Spitfire and would have been lucky to finish halfway up the fleet.
Sail the cat that suits you. When you sail well and under control, it is amazing how high your finishing position will be against others who are on faster cats, but not sailing as well as you.
I hope that some of you understand what I am getting at.
It is very easy to be persuaded to buy an unsuitable cat just because others have them, and you do not want to be left behind.
People over here are finally realising that you do not have to sail a heavy 18 or 20 ft cat to sail fast."

So, sail what makes sense for you.

Miles,

I often wonder where the quote of max weight of 315 lbs for the F16 comes from as the ONLY class to make a scientific and dependable analysis of the optimal crewweight was the Taipan class and the optimal weight was found to be 310 lbs.

With that the max weight will be a little higher than 315 lbs as competitive ranges often spread out by something like 25 lbs to either way from the optimal weight. So I advice everybody to read the article at :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_optimal_crew_weight_analysis.html

And also look at the underlying data of the 2001 Taipan nationals at :

http://www.geocities.com/f16hpclass/F16HP_optimal_crew_weight_datapoints.html

where you all can see for yourself that 7 crews raced in the nationals at 150 kg or more (330 lbs +). The heaviest crew was actually 165 kg = 364 lbs.

Now I will never say that 364 lbs is the best weight to sail these boats at but it definately proofs that 350 lbs is not "way to much weight for the 16's" It also very puts an end to 315 lbs as maximum weight.

With respect to our fellow class 18HT, I have no further comments with respect to that it is strange to compare us with them with the differences between the boats and that the quotes made in relation to the 18 HT are sometimes remarkable beyond believe. I read somewhere in the Sailing world article that "... the Jav 2 considered a breakthrough boat that’s taking Europe by storm, ..." Now, we have yet feel the wind here in North west Europe and even at the Paris boatshow none were present. Needless to say that there were several F18's and 16's. F18 class is as yet still very much unimpressed about this breakthrough overhere. This years regatta results are the direct cause of this.

Also the claim :"The Jav 2 represents a departure: It’s the first small, uni-rigged beach cat specifically designed to be raced by a two-man crew. Up until now, all uni-rigged cats have been raced singlehanded " is remarkable from a historical context when looking at the following list of a few predessors : Dart 6000, Ventilo 20, Marstrom M20, Ventilo F18HT and yes even the Bim yards older designs like the Bim 6.0 of the 80's. even the very youngest of this list, the M20, has been around for several years already.

Also the sailing world article doesn't name 315'-345' as the ideal weight of the Jav 2. Actually it says nothing about that. see for yourself at :

http://www.sailingworld.com/sw_article.php?articleID=1472

What is MY point with this post ? I wish that people would research the facts before stating "Truths". The true facts are quite easily obtained.

And to this I would like to add that the True Thruths are often far less amazing.

I wish all the sailors of either class the best of luck for the future.

Fair winds

Wouter

I agree.. The BIM F18HT looks like a great boat.. I guess there are two designs as far as Im aware building the F18HT class.. Thats fantastic..
My choices ..
I hate heavy boats.. Too old to pick up a heavy boat.. Coupled with the knowledge that heavy boats/classes are reserved for those that cant build reasonable hulls..

So this leaves me only a few options
F16, F18HT, M18, M20, A class, B class, the C class or the D class..
D's never really took off and needs three to compete.. (would put together an 18teen if I wanted that option)
Cs.. look fun but not really any competative fleets or really for off the beach competitions..Also the 300k cost is a little daunting..

B's are another idea guess I could sail against the Tornados.. But then I could seek out a M20.. Still require two adult males to sail.. In my local conditions Ts are a handle even with the old smaller rig and two on trap..

This leaves A, M18 & F16 and F18HT
I sail solo weighing 168lb.. The local wind strength averages at 22 knots each afternoon.. Gusting between 30 and 40.. Call me chicken but Im not going to sail a F18HT solo.. That leaves F16, M18 and A.. I have a nine year old son.. He enjoys being with dad on trap sometimes.. kites are fun being a skiffie...So that takes out the A..
which leaves?
F16 and M18..

M18 could I guess be rigged with a second trap.. but I enjoy mucking about building..
leaves the F16...

It is indeed great to see the Sailing world magazine to choose a high performance catamaran as their boat of the year. That is good promo for all cat sailors in a mono minded sailing world.

Thanks F18HT class.

And like all the others have said earlier. Different people choose different boats for different reasons and so did I.

I owned both 16 and 18 ft. boats and my latest boat of preference will once again be a 16 foot boat.

I 'm not 50 yet or have smaller children so that weren't the reasons for me to choose a 16 footer.

Mine are that my permanent and very committed crew got hooked on some women who demanded that he moved away from the seaboard to live with her. And in the contest between women and the sea, the sea lost out. Since then "time-share" between sailing/racing solo and sailling/racing doublehanded. I have a busy schedule in my work in the energy sector of the NL (Daily deadlines work) and often aren't able to schedule a race till the very last moment. This makes finding a crew extra difficult and I don't always succeed. By going F16 I can decide how to sail (solo or not) till a few minutes before the race.

Added to this the fact that have began to hate dragging up a heavy boat through the soft sands we have here and onto a roadtrailer, especially alone. Making my happy again required going trully light weight. And well you don't get much lighter than an A-cat, M20 or F16.

I really looked at A's but I enjoying sailing doublehanded under a full rig to much to immediately decide for that boat. Also I like taking people along for a ride. This dropped the A-cat. And for some reason my girlfriends are in the featherweight range. A big powerful boat would scare them away from the sport I love dearly.

M20 was to expensice for me and to extreme; I would be scared shitless sailing or even racing that boat singlehanded in Dutch conditions. So I was faced with a problem because I didn't like the heavy 16 footers of the time; almost teh same weight as a 18 footer by significantly slower. I don't see tnhe point in going slow because some builders doesn't want to optimize a 16 footer. Than the Taipan 4.9 design come along as a shining beacon as well comparable 16 foot designs by other builders and I thought :"That is the boat that will fill all requirements for me and I guess for many others like me too 1" And so my Formula 16 was born.

It is the only cat class that satisfies MY needs.

And after this all I thought that many others formulated needs to come out at the same designs and this the class was born and has grows consistently ever since.

Fair winds to you all,

Wouter

I have this solo / girlfriend duality problem as well.

It has prompted me to install a jib on my H17, and soon, I'll be taking that jib off and adding some kind of foresail (thats sill up for debate). While I love sailing single-handed, bringing the girlfriend along is the problem. She's a very active sailor, and accomplished crew (how do you think I met her) so making her sit on the wing all day is just torture. I'll like having the option of sailing one-up or two-up, and I'm really going to be looking for a foresail solution like the MX-RAY so I can use it singlehanded.

I sailed a H17 a lot at our college club, so I've got a decent idea of how they're set up, and I've come up with a CHEAP (less than $100) snuffer system that works better than a lot of production models. You can build it in a few hours.
If your girlfriend is anything like my wife, the snuffer will make or break the spinaker thing.
My e-mail is fastcatmichael@hotmail.com
Good luck
Michael Coffman
t4.9#32

Just curious Wouter how many T4.9's have been built? How many are in the US, and Europe? Just wondering.

It appears some of you sail with your wife and kids; I think many of us want boats that can be fun and great for our wives or girl friends, or sail with our husbands or boy friends, etc. My wife informed me last month that she wants to sail in the 2004 H16 worlds in Mexico, which was a surprise to me as she never seemed interested in the BIG ONE! I think what changed her perspective on racing was during a regattas last year. During this regatta, I put no pressure on her, and we just went out and had fun. In this pivotal regatta the wind was so strong that most people were heading for the beach but we stayed out and on the reach to the weather mark we had our first capsize and I thought oh boy she will never want to do this again. Well to my surprised she was laughing after the capsize and asked if we could do that again. Well we did it four more times and she has been hooked ever sense, she still talks about that regatta to all her friends when sailing discussed. I should add that we used Gary solo-right system so righting the boat was quite easy. If I had been concerned with winning during this regatta she would never had had this experience and probably would still be un-interested in bigger regattas to this day.

For my kids and us the H16 has been perfect with active racing almost everywhere, my wife likes it because it is easy to set up and to move around on the beach, etc., etc. We go out to my old stomping grounds a lot on the Wash. coast and sail in the harbors, lots of oyster beds and a dagger boards would not last very long, or when you did get done you would not have very long dagger boards left. There surfing is awesome there as well. For us the H16 has been the most versatile boat with great durability. I do sail it solo a lot with the Trapseats, which makes it even easier to sail solo, plus when I am not racing I use my roller furling jib. So it's quite versatile.

I am ordering the new Hobie snuffer spinnaker soon, which is called the mid pole "trumpet" design. Some of you may know something about this spinnaker design already but for those of you who do not go to the catsailor H16 forum. Go to the thread called "There here spinnakers for H16's." You'll find a post by Matt Miller of Hobie USA with the picture of one on a Tiger.

I do have to admit I ordered a Hobie Bravo as the idea of car-top-able cat, with the design features of a monohull and multihull did appeal to me. Heck I can buy a new Bravo and used H16 in great shape for half the price of any HT boat. I know the Bravo and H16 are not techy enough for some of you, but there are boats for everyone.

Thanks for the great responses!

Micheal, Geert has pics of your snuffer you want them ?

Could come in handy when explaining how you did it.

I have the pictures in digital form but didn't have the time to make a nice webpage out of it. I'm already happy that I got the Paris boat show page ready.

Wouter

Taipan sailnumbers are now just below 300. I don't know exactly what the latest is right now.

Oh wait, I can give a better estimate, the second newest Taipan in the USA has sailnumber 264. The newest has just gotten in about 3 weeks ago I haven't received that number yet. With some new sales in Australia and South East Asia the salinumber should be around 270.

Some of these sailnumbers are assigned to plans for home build boats. Some of these boats are build and some aren't so the total amount of Taipans build is a little lower than 270. However all the plans sold to people I know (enclosing USA, EU and Aus) have resulted in a boat.

I count 17 Taipan 4.9's in the USA at this moment. These are the ones that have identified themselfs to the Formula 16 class. I'm not involved in the US Taipan sales so there may be a Taipan somewhere that I'm not aware off.

Europe has a similar number of Taipan 4.9's

South East Asia (Thailand and Singapore) has grown by some 11 boats in the last 18 months and will have a fleet of something like 11 to 15 boats. Most of them have spinnakers too there = F16 setup.

But the very Bulk of the Taipans are still to be found in Australia and they have nationals consisting of some 50 boats.

With respect to the trumpet design, mail me and I will relay some info about that to you.

I saw Matt Millers post, I always keep an eye on the H16 forum although i very seldom post anything there.

And hey simple boats are alot of fun too ! Have fun with your new bravo.

Wouter

Surf-
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by disabilities- My PhD research was on spinal cord injury so I'm a little familiar with it, and I agree about the single (currently) acceptable (modified) beach cat for those sailors- But I am sure other boats could be modified in similar fashion and be as good or better than that boat in certain areas but the demand is so small why would one want to do that?
Per your comment about what is "better"- Being "heavy" on a F 16HP or "light" on a F 18HT- that depends on other factors IMO- The persons involved (very different if one person is huge and other small or child vs two smaller people) and the conditions (heavy wind or light airs, launching through surf or smooth water, heavy chop, etc.)- My crew and I sailed at 350 lbs. in the two regattas I mentioned on my Taipan- and on the second day in the Keys when my tiller extension was broken in the first race I was glad we were "heavy" as that way with only one of us trapping (despite the fact it was double trap weather) and the other hiking we were still able to drive the boat and we actually got 3 second place finishes that day! At the same weight if we had been on an F 18HT we would have been doomed upwind IMO in those conditions. If you go to the F 16HP website and check out the photos of some of the European F 16HP designs (Spitfire, Stealth, etc.) many of the photos show two men sailing the boat. Also, since the F 16HP's are DESIGNED to do "double-duty" as a single hander or sloop it is very easy to take a child out as a uni or w/ roller furler jib or self tacker and sail the boat "yoruself" while your child/other person just enjoys the ride and doesn't need to trap out or do anything (including even setting up or moving boats around due to light weight, etc.). I'm sure an F 18HT can also accomodate kids and being a unirig anyway it's got that going for it but it doesn't have the ability to easily "shorten sail" (by rolling/deleting jib) or race one up. I don't know the weight of the lightest crew on the F 18HT's at their Nationals but I don't remember seeing any teams I would guess at under 320 or so.

Happy Holidays!

Kirt