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Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Robi] #140854
04/26/08 12:47 PM
04/26/08 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
To be clear, I never said the right of way boat was REQUIRED to hail, it is a courtesey call and one I always make because I don't want to hit anyone, or be hit.

It did save me at Tradewinds when I never saw a boat (not in my fleet) coming in on starboard under our jib, couldn't see him and could barely hear him in that wind, but because he did yell several times we finally heard and saw him and were able to duck him cleanly.

I hate to see these kinds of collisions, they could realy do some damage to boat and people, and for what? It costs nearly no boat lengths to duck.

You are a fool to assume a boat on port tack sees you and a bigger fool if you then hit him. Rule 14 clearly states that you will do everything in your power to avoid a collision, even if you are the ROW boat.

Last edited by Timbo; 04/26/08 12:48 PM.

Blade F16
#777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Timbo] #140855
04/26/08 01:01 PM
04/26/08 01:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
Quote
To be clear, I never said the right of way boat was REQUIRED to hail, it is a courtesey call and one I always make because I don't want to hit anyone, or be hit.
You are a fool to assume a boat on port tack sees you and a bigger fool if you then hit him. Rule 14 clearly states that you will do everything in your power to avoid a collision, even if you are the ROW boat.


I agree... when in doubt I certainly yell "starboard" to make sure they see me- and in return like the heads up myself. Not required but in some circumstances I think it is good sportsmanship.

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: PTP] #140856
04/26/08 01:53 PM
04/26/08 01:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
MarkW_F18 Offline
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MarkW_F18  Offline
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Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
This just posted by Jake on team seacats site
**********************************************

US Multihull Champions Crowned
By Jake
Pitt and Shafer win the Hobie Alter Cup by 2 points over Casey / Williams! More detail to follow as soon as I can get a few moments.


Mark Williams
F18 H16
http://emsa-sailing.org
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Jake] #140857
04/26/08 05:37 PM
04/26/08 05:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacifi...
Quote
Quote
Quote
I bet you could get a deal on this one!

Looks like a project for Jake back at the hotel parking lot.


Jake brought no tools.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> That's like Santa with no toys! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: hobie1616] #140858
04/26/08 06:25 PM
04/26/08 06:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I bet you could get a deal on this one!

Looks like a project for Jake back at the hotel parking lot.


Jake brought no tools.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> That's like Santa with no toys! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


nope - like a man with already too much on his mind!


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Jake] #140859
04/26/08 06:55 PM
04/26/08 06:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 164
fort Myers, FL
arievd Offline
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arievd  Offline
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fort Myers, FL
Very interesting race today, I was fortunate enough to watch it from the water. Fleet A had the first start, and after what looked like a long luffing duel JC/JW came over the starting line last, just after Pitt/Shafer. I believe that Tomko was involved as well, but not sure about that. Both Pitt and JC made their way through the fleet gradually, exchanging positions a couple of times. The wind was dropping gradually, and shifted about 50 degrees to the South. JC/JW came in 3rd, Pitt/Shafer came in 4th. Tomko came in 7th (or thereabouts) After that race, the difference between 1st (Pitt) and 2nd (JC) was 2 points.
B fleet was sent out onto the water after a brief wait on the beach, and I think the plan was to sail one more A fleet race after that. However the wind continued to decrease and shift around, and after waiting around on the water until close to 2pm the B fleet boats were sent back to the beach and racing was over.


Arie
Hobie 16 111812
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: arievd] #140860
04/26/08 10:20 PM
04/26/08 10:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 148
Cutler Bay, Florida
Bajan_Bum Offline
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Bajan_Bum  Offline
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Cutler Bay, Florida
Just curious. If it's the U.S. Multihull Championship, why is there only one brand name boat being used?

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Bajan_Bum] #140861
04/26/08 10:35 PM
04/26/08 10:35 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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H17cat  Offline
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Issaquah, WA, USA
See http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/USMHC/
Boat selection is made each year by the Committee based on proposals made by Boat Manufacturers.

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Bajan_Bum] #140862
04/26/08 10:35 PM
04/26/08 10:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
It's not about which multihull boat is the fastest, it's about which multihull skipper+crew are the fastest, so they always use a fleet of identical, brand new cats, and to further keep it even, they also rotate boats.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Timbo] #140863
04/27/08 06:17 AM
04/27/08 06:17 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 264
Long Island, NY
gregP19 Offline
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Posts: 264
Long Island, NY
Speaking of the boats...I'd love to hear what some of the guys who sailed the cup in '07 and this year have to say about how last year's boat (Blade) compares. Especially JW and JC who did so well both times.


G Gove Blade #728 Long Island, New Yawk
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Bajan_Bum] #140864
04/27/08 07:36 AM
04/27/08 07:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
Just curious. If it's the U.S. Multihull Championship, why is there only one brand name boat being used?


The idea is to take as much of the boat out of the equation as possible so that it is sailor against sailor. If you are familiar with the NASCAR IROC series, this is the same thing. All the boats are setup identically - batten tension, mast rake, rig tension, diamond wire tension, spreader rake, jib clew attachment point, etc. Sailors are only permited to make normal sailing adjustments while underway (ouhauls, downhauls, sheets, etc.).

We use 10 brand new boats because 20 would be too much for a manufacturer to justify. We use 20 teams because the yacht clubs couldn't pay for the event with only 10. In other US Championships, they use a pre-determined boat and sailor rotation schedule and you could (and they have) end up with a 1st place team that never beat the 2nd place team when they met on the water but still wins the regatta. For our championship, John Williams when he was chair of the event in 2005, introduced the promotion/relegation system that was an adaptation from model sailboat racing. A-fleet is the top fleet and each round, the places eight through ten are relegated to b fleet and places 1 through 3 in b-fleet are promoted to A. This way, the top sailors are racing the top sailors.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: gregP19] #140865
04/27/08 08:09 AM
04/27/08 08:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 302
Raleigh/ Wrightsville Beach NC
MarkW_F18 Offline
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Congratulations Nigel and Alex. You deserve to be included in the rights of past winners. It is a pretty impressive list:

http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/USMHC/winners.asp

This is sort of like a great QB finally winning the Super Bowl. There are a lot of Dan Marino's out there that are not considered GREAT until they get that ring. I've always thought that Alter Cup is the Super Bowl of Cat racing in the US.

I'm curious what next year's boat will be. In the past 4 years, it's been on a F18 twice, F16 and NA 20.

Ever think it will be done on a H16 again?


Mark Williams
F18 H16
http://emsa-sailing.org
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: MarkW_F18] #140866
04/27/08 08:33 AM
04/27/08 08:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Quote
Congratulations Nigel and Alex. You deserve to be included in the rights of past winners. It is a pretty impressive list:

http://www.ussailing.org/championships/adult/USMHC/winners.asp

This is sort of like a great QB finally winning the Super Bowl. There are a lot of Dan Marino's out there that have are not considered GREAT until they get that ring. I've always thought that Alter Cup is the Super Bowl of Cat racing in the US.

I'm curious what next year's boat will be. In the past 4 years, it's been on a F18 twice, F16 and NA 20.

Ever think it will be done on a H16 again?


There's no reason it won't be on the H16 again.


Jake Kohl
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Jake] #140867
04/27/08 09:31 AM
04/27/08 09:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
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ThunderMuffin  Offline
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T

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Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
I know what I WANT it to be, thats for sure. You'd either love it or hate it.

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Jake] #140868
04/27/08 10:02 AM
04/27/08 10:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
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mikekrantz  Offline
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Posts: 712
Boy, there are a lot of opinions and accusations being tossed around on this thread. As one of the parties involved in the incident I would like to set the record straight.

It was the on second upwind beat when it happened. We, Krantz/Lennard, were ahead and to leeward in 1st, and Pitt/Shafer were a couple of boatlengths windward and behind in second at the time. We tacked to starboard, David hailed starboard several times as we approached, he continued hailing starboard. We fully expected them to tack either directly in front or in a leebow situation. There never was any doubt in our mind that they were going to aggressively defend their position. At the very last second we realized that they were not tacking and a collision was going to happen, we blew the main and jib and attempted to duck. Our starboard hull hit them about 3 feet from the transom. There was big bang, we both spun around. I asked them if they were all right, everyone was ok, they did a 360 and we went on to finish the race. It cost us both a lot of positions, we finished 7th, they crossed the line in 8th. Once we got to the beach, we then realized the extent of the damage from the collision. The jury convened a hearing, Pitt/Shafer were exonerated on the port/starboard collision since they had done their 360. The jury then proceeded to DSQ Pitt/Shafer for a violation of rule 44.1 - causing serious damage.

Nobody could feel worse about the incident than Dave and I. Nigel and Alex are very good friends of ours. We race both together and against each other all the time. It was an unfortunate incident that just happened, and we are especially grateful that it did not cost them the championship.

On another note, I've competed in more than several Alter Cup Championships. This one, was by far, the best I've ever been to. The Capricorns supplied by Fun In The Sun were awesome boats to sail. The city of Gulfport welcomed us with open arms. The hospitality of the host club - Gulfport Yacht Club was second to none - thanks to Bob Feckner and his staff of volunteers. And Jake Kohl and his event staff ran an impeccable event. Last but not least, the competitors, some we knew and some we just met, were a great group of sailors. Everyone sailed hard and sailed fair - what more could you ask for?

Regards, Mike Krantz

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: mikekrantz] #140869
04/27/08 01:16 PM
04/27/08 01:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Thanks for the write up Mike. I'm glad nobody got hurt. Did they just not see you coming or did they think they could cross you? Just goes to show that even at the top skill level these things can happen and the rest of us need to be aware, I know I've nearly hit or been hit many times in similar situations. It's hard to hear a hail when the wind is up and with the jib blocking the view it's hard to see what's coming, even worse with the spinnaker going downwind.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Timbo] #140870
04/27/08 02:09 PM
04/27/08 02:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 712
mikekrantz Offline
old hand
mikekrantz  Offline
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Posts: 712
They said they never heard us hailing them, and didn't see us approaching until it was too late. I have no reason to doubt their testimony.

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: mikekrantz] #140871
04/27/08 02:15 PM
04/27/08 02:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
That's what happens when sailors get older -- they are all going deaf. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
My suggestion is for everybody to carry on their life jacket one of those mini-airhorns to signal other boats when you are on a collision course.

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Mary] #140872
04/27/08 02:21 PM
04/27/08 02:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
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Michigan
whistles might work too but then either you fumble around for the one on your PFD (if you have one at all) and are not paying attention or everyone else gets confused and starts looking in the water for someone separated from their boat!

Re: Alter Cup 2008 on the water reporting [Re: Jake] #140873
04/28/08 10:21 AM
04/28/08 10:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 148
Cutler Bay, Florida
Bajan_Bum Offline
member
Bajan_Bum  Offline
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Posts: 148
Cutler Bay, Florida
Quote
The idea is to take as much of the boat out of the equation as possible so that it is sailor against sailor .....


Thanks for the info, Jake. I had wondered why the Worrell 1000 and the Archipelago did the same. It does make sense now. I guess I was wondering if I wanted to enter the Nationals every year, if I would have to purchase a different boat every year to do so.

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