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Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats #141652
05/01/08 07:39 AM
05/01/08 07:39 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
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jimi Offline OP
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jimi  Offline OP
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Trondheim, Norway
So there's this war going on at Sailinganarchy, where a certain Lord Doug has claimed the moth to be the fastest boat under 20 ft. Not trying to stirr up the same argument here, I'm wondering how you catsailors have done against skiffies, moths and other high performance halv boats around the world?

Two mates of mine and me raced the Hobie 21 Formula in superlight(!) conditions (sub 3 knots of wind)in a distance race last summer. Among the participants was "Narida", 105 ft super yacht. At one point we actually had to bear off as we were on port tack up wind. The next tack we had lost a few meters, but were very close indeed. This went on for about three or four tacks before her 100+ ft masts picked up some air and sailed away. That's got to be the best sailing experience I've had in those type of conditions yet. The crew on this 20 million sailing ship not taking their eyes off us for about 10 minutes. Oh, and Knut Frostad, three times(?) Whitbread sailor was at the helm at Narida. All in all, it was a blast!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: jimi] #141653
05/01/08 07:46 AM
05/01/08 07:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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No war, it was no contest. The BS stops when you hit the water.

Done it once (actually many times) and willing to line up again


Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #141654
05/01/08 08:18 AM
05/01/08 08:18 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
Southern Ontario
fredsmith Offline
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Geeezzzz---let's not give that lord guy any excuse to start posting here.SA has the lord and we have Wouter,the difference being Wouter backs up his ideas with relative information.Some of us don't always agree with his conclusions,but that is what debate is about.
Love debates ,hate Bull*&^%

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: fredsmith] #141655
05/01/08 08:39 AM
05/01/08 08:39 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
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jimi Offline OP
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Trondheim, Norway
Lighten up guys, as I said, I'm not trying to start what's going on at SA here, just looking for examples of beach cat racing other high performance dinghys. Read the whole post!

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: jimi] #141656
05/01/08 09:08 AM
05/01/08 09:08 AM
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rexdenton Offline
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You left out wind surfers and kites, (who are the true speed demons.) But to answer, it depends on the conditions, the match course, and the sailor. On average, across all day sailing conditions, cats are fastest, because the conditions required to sail the other boats fast in all directions, limits average VMG well below that acheivable in a cat.


Nacra F18 #856
Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: rexdenton] #141657
05/01/08 09:15 AM
05/01/08 09:15 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Myself at the 2007 Brass Monkey Regatta on Sydney Harbour (combined Skiffs regatta with Multis invited)

Quote
Day one the 18 did overlay the gate a few times, which is why we near on lapped him....... However overlaying is overlaying even on a cat. We did not bang the corners like the 18 but picked the shifts and pressure on the down winds (who said cats aren't tactical). We did underlay a few times and had a few minor overlays as well.

Race 3 was a shocker on our part but we came back hard with superior boat speed and tactics in the 18s most favoured conditions....... They were just pulling 3 strings with the #1 rig whilst we were struggling to get even 1 on the wire.

Race 4 was my favourite and really emphasised the speed difference. We started under the 18 and sailed straight out from underneath them with better hight and speed. (We were now just pulling 1 to 2 strings). The 18 followed the same lines as us and we continued to steadily pull out ground on him both upwind and down.

Throughout the 2 days, whilst they also made a few errors, when ever we were side by side the F18 showed superior boat speed. Across the wind range the F18 pulled BIG ground on the upwinds. Downwind the F18 still pulled ground however in race 3 when the wind was very light (about 5 to 7 knots) the 18 Skiff had simular speed but a slight edge in VMG.

Race 1 – F18 by 4 min 43 sec in a 25 min 39 sec race
Race 2 – F18 by 7 min 44 sec in a 32 min 41 sec race
Race 3 – 18 Skiff by 52 sec in a 42 min 51 sec race
Race 4 – F18 by 2 min 18 sec in a 25 min 13 sec race

Sounds a little more comprehensive when you convert to minutes.


Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #141658
05/01/08 01:06 PM
05/01/08 01:06 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 87
Trondheim, Norway
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jimi Offline OP
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Wow, I wouldn't expect the difference to be that big. How experienced was the crew on the 18s you raced? I guess that proves it all then..

There's a cool video of a couple of 18s racing a VX 40 and some Tornados. All in all, the speed difference between the three really isn't as big as one would expect, the VX being a bit faster and pointing a bit higher than the T, with the 18s closely following the T's again.

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: jimi] #141659
05/01/08 01:14 PM
05/01/08 01:14 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Quote
Wow, I wouldn't expect the difference to be that big. How experienced was the crew on the 18s you raced? I guess that proves it all then..

There's a cool video of a couple of 18s racing a VX 40 and some Tornados. All in all, the speed difference between the three really isn't as big as one would expect, the VX being a bit faster and pointing a bit higher than the T, with the 18s closely following the T's again.


Jimi

Look at that video again. You can see they are constantly re-setting the positions of the boats.

The T kills the 18's with ease, the x40 kills the T with ease.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: jimi] #141660
05/01/08 01:53 PM
05/01/08 01:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
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srm Offline
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One thing to keep in mind when you ask the question which is fastest is that, especially with boats like skiffs or Moths, you have to actually be able to keep the thing upright. My guess is that even the top level moth sailors capsize a lot more frequently than top level cat sailors. If you're on your side, you're not going fast.

I suspect that in most cases around a course a beach cat will beat a skiff or a moth. The long narrow hulls make a cat's average speed very good. The San Fransisco Bridge to Bridge race allows cats, skiffs, windsurfers, and kiters. I think the windsurfers and kiters usually wind that one, but I'm pretty sure it's set up to be a downwinder.

Having spent a little time on an International 14, I will say that double trapped planing off the back of one of those boats in 15 to 20mph is a very unique experience compared to cat sailing and if you have the opportunity, it's worth the ride. And I would personally jump on the opportunity to try a Moth regardless of what it's top speed actually is.

sm

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: jimi] #141661
05/01/08 04:35 PM
05/01/08 04:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
Once the hull of the moth leaves the water it is no longer a boat.
The moth is now just a foil launch platform and peculiar looking seat.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: warbird] #141662
05/01/08 05:49 PM
05/01/08 05:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
I like the foiler Moth, not for everyone though, a target weight of 90kg (190lb) for boat AND skipper would prevent most of us from sailing them.

Darryn
Mozzie
1782

Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: Darryn] #141663
05/01/08 10:06 PM
05/01/08 10:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
lesburn1 Offline
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If you don't mention his name, maybe HWSNBN will not come to this site!!


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A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

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Re: Moths vs. 18s vs. fast beach cats [Re: lesburn1] #141664
05/02/08 07:39 AM
05/02/08 07:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Codblow Offline
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couldn't resist it
the two guys you talk about I heard popped outa the same test tube and seperated at birth <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for safety reasons


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