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Reaching & Racing - why not? #142577
05/08/08 08:47 PM
05/08/08 08:47 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 217
J
jcasto1 Offline OP
enthusiast
jcasto1  Offline OP
enthusiast
J

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 217
I love my catamaran.
I love racing my catamaran.
I love racing my catamaran upwind & downwind.
I love racing my catamaran a long distance.
I love *sailing* my catamaran back & forth on a reach as fast as I can, but I almost never get to do this in a "race".

Why? How come there aren't more catamaran "races" that have nice long reaches, or fun (crazy?) slalom shaped courses?

Here's some reasons which I think are used as explanations against courses with reaches, and I will debunk each of them.

Strategic
Explained : the strategic aspects of (windward/leeward courses represent the "pinnacle" of sailing skill.
Debunked : This explanation is a load of cr**. The pinnacle of sailing skill is demonstrated by whoever wins the sailing race. Everyone has the same rules, the same course, and the same chance at winning.

Handicaps
Excuse : handicap numbers are derived based on W/L certain course configurations and are therefore invalid for courses with reaches.
Debunked : With the exception of Texel, every open cat race score that I've seen posted (mostly in the U.S., I'll admit) uses the same Portsmouth numbers, even if it's a 300 mile downwind course, or a 50 mile course around an island, or a true windward-leeward "round the buoys" course. Therefore, the database of race results used to generate these D-PN handicap numbers in the first place, already includes data from races which are not exclusively windward-leeward. If there were separate sets of handicap numbers used, maintained & published for “reaching” courses that were different than for W-L courses, this reason (excuse?) would be more believable. But there isn't, and it's not.

Race Committee workload
Excuse - its too hard to set up a reaching course.
Debunked : well, it is an extra mark to set. So buck up and do it. I've worked race committee countless times, and it's only a little more work to set up a course to include a reach, compared to a windward-leeward. Think of all the fun you're providing the competitors and stop being selfish.

Consistency
Explanation : when you host a regatta, you want participants to be able to plan correctly, and compete fairly. If every club had crazy shaped courses, no one would know what to expect until they showed up.
Debunked : home court advantage already is built into lots of races. Local sailing conditions on a lake or bay (or river ) is just one kind of home court advantage. Many yacht clubs, and even catamaran clubs, use permanent buoys in lakes, bays or channels, as marks of their races. Unless you have a GPS and program in the waypoints, locals will always have advantages. (What course is an I-7? Where the he** is K mark? Is a "X" mark an obstruction or a mark of the course? Where's ICW74? )

So, with all the above reasons debunked, I've reduce it to one reason that I just can't explain away : “everyone's doing W-L, so if I don't, they won't come to my regatta”.

What do you think, and do you like sailing on reaches? (I know you do!)


Jim Casto
NACRA 5.5 & NACRA 5.7
Austin TX
Lake Travis
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: jcasto1] #142578
05/08/08 09:09 PM
05/08/08 09:09 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Rick White uses a B mark for Tradewinds.

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Robi] #142579
05/08/08 09:19 PM
05/08/08 09:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
<<<<So, with all the above reasons debunked, I've reduce it to one reason that I just can't explain away : “everyone's doing W-L, so if I don't, they won't come to my regatta”.

What do you think, and do you like sailing on reaches? (I know you do!)>>>>

I agree. What ever happened to screaming reaches? Part of the skill of racing is surviving a screaming reach. Avoiding the "dreaded pitchpole" was just part of it. I read somewhere today that most cat sailors have or should have a mortal fear of pitchpoleing. Just deal with it. W/L may be tactically more interesting but the reach is just as much of a challenge...and you can pass if you are good enough.

Rick is "old school" and knows that you don't have to fit a cookie cutter profile to have a good time and get folks to attend.


Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Mugrace72] #142580
05/08/08 10:18 PM
05/08/08 10:18 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
Our club always has 3 marks and the reaches are the fun part. IMHO anybody can do a reach, a learner doesn't have to pull it on or can pinch and gradually get their confidence but look at their faces when it finally clicks. My 2 girls were on the wire last year on the stingray with me sitting in during the Goolwa Milang when we pitchpoled. Yeah they were scared at the time but ask them now what race they want to do again and its the Goolwa Milang they've got the dreaded pitchpole out of the way and it was exciting.
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Mugrace72] #142581
05/08/08 10:37 PM
05/08/08 10:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Crossed up with a good crew on a double trap reach to B mark, skipper's torso behind the stern of the Hobie 16, crew jammed in tight, their chicken line at a right angle off the transom, who can ride that big puff, grab the most pressure, who has the balls to drive it the hardest? Knowing one mistake and it's bye-bye.

Thanks for the memories


John H16, H14
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: jcasto1] #142582
05/09/08 12:29 AM
05/09/08 12:29 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
old hand
ejpoulsen  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
Many regattas do use triangle and B mark courses--last weekend our RC sent us around the B mark on 3 of 5 races.

One of my favorite regatta locales actually does have some pretty complex courses around its "permanent" buoys. See: http://www.fresnoyachtclub.org/data/Club%20Races/Huntington%20FYC%20Club%20Race%20Sheet%202007.pdf

So, the reach is alive and well. Personally, I think the most tactically interesting courses use short reaching legs to break up otherwise long downwind stints, such at course #7 on the above linked map.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: ejpoulsen] #142583
05/09/08 08:25 AM
05/09/08 08:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Buy (or charter) a Hobie, come to Madcatter.

I'm the PRO, and like all good PROs should do, I asked the OA (host fleet) whether they would like to have reaches. The overwhelming response was YES!

So, if the wind is good enough to make it fun, we will have at least two races with reaches. Hope to see you all there.

BTW, reaches are, and always have been, part of the standard IHCA courses, which have since been adopted by US SAILING as the "standard multihull courses."

Mike

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: brucat] #142584
05/09/08 08:32 AM
05/09/08 08:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
I think the reaching courses have gone away with the advent of the spinnaker cats. You are always on a hot reach downwind with a spinnaker cat! But if the RC has set a reach that is too high to cary the spinnaker, it's not so much fun. And then the next leg is usually too deep, which is slow, so they have to get it just right if the spin. boats are to be able to cary the spin and go fast on both legs.

But for the non-spin boats I think there should be a good, long hot reach leg, that is the most fun leg I think. The windsurfer trapazoid courses might be interesting to try on a non-spin boat.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: ejpoulsen] #142585
05/09/08 08:34 AM
05/09/08 08:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
H
Hullflyer1 Offline
enthusiast
Hullflyer1  Offline
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H

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 304
"Screaming" close reaches are the quintessence of catamaran sailing. Pitchpoling, the scourge of catamarans is always possible. It is the crew that has the skill and courage to keep the hammer down when it gets really nasty, will really gain.

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Hullflyer1] #142586
05/09/08 09:39 AM
05/09/08 09:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
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R

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
I like real reach marks. But sometimes they are placed so far downwind that all they do is force you to one side of the course on the downwind leg which makes the downwind leg all about boatspeed not tactics. The worst are the diamond shaped courses.

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: jcasto1] #142587
05/09/08 10:24 AM
05/09/08 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Screaming reaches... isn't that what distance races are for?

BAN THE 'B' MARK!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: David Ingram] #142588
05/09/08 11:18 AM
05/09/08 11:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Um, no.

Screaming reaches are for keeping it fun, and giving the sailors what they want. If a racing fleet says we only want to go upwind, we'll set the course that way. If they say, give us reaches, I'm all for giving them reaches!

Of course, this is done with wisdom and moderation. We all know that there is some element of "follow-the-leader" involved, so not every race should have a reach, nor will we bother if it's blowing 5.2 knots. Again, unless the fleet asks for that...

Oh, and I'd LOVE to see trapezoids used for cats. We never get the resources for that though (not to mention, the corner-bangers would sort of kill the point).

Mike

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Timbo] #142589
05/09/08 12:01 PM
05/09/08 12:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 84
Orange Park, FL
RobLyman Offline
journeyman
RobLyman  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 84
Orange Park, FL
Quote
The windsurfer trapazoid courses might be interesting to try on a non-spin boat.


If you are talking about the "M" courses with all of the gybing marks where you zig-zag back and forth downwind, THAT would be fun. I might even go get myself a beater Hobie 16, body armor and a helmet to play in that game.

Can you imagine gybing from almost a beam reach to almost a beam reach on the other tack in hull flying conditions with a ton of boats on the course? The first boat throws his rudders over as they come in off the wire, the boat nearly stops, and the rest of the fleet makes like a highway pile-up trying not to run the first boat over. Once the commotion clears, they all speed off to the next mark to do it again, several times.

The same thing happens on sailboards, but when the wind is blowing they carve nice tight turns around the marks. Cats, which don't turn that well, would be a different story. I actually think it would be fun...IF you don't mind getting a bunch of dings in your boat, which is why I suggested a beater Hobie 16.

Imagine the body English required as both crew scamble to the back of the boat to raise the bows and pivot around the last few feet of stern. It would be like taking Rick White's roll tacks and gybes to the extreme.

Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: brucat] #142590
05/09/08 12:27 PM
05/09/08 12:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Guess it depends on what your definition of fun is.

And yes having to go downhill with only a sloop rig would be a bit of a yawn.

There's no harm in sending the sloops and uni's around 'B' and letting the spin boats go up and downhill. Everyone is happy.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: RobLyman] #142591
05/09/08 12:33 PM
05/09/08 12:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
It might make for better TV dramma too! The average TV audience loves to see a good train wreck which is why NASCAR is so popular!

I can see it now, "Hey there now Ricky Bobby, you cut me off going into turn 3!"

"Nah...rub'n is racin'!"

"Shake and Bake!" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Timbo] #142592
05/09/08 12:35 PM
05/09/08 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
The thread is offically dead, there's been a NASCAR reference


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: David Ingram] #142593
05/09/08 12:46 PM
05/09/08 12:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Dohh... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: David Ingram] #142594
05/09/08 12:52 PM
05/09/08 12:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
Now don't tell me you all are afraid of a little bumping! Maybe you should get yourselves some Waves and Getaways. Bring it on, full contact sailing!


What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: IndyWave] #142595
05/09/08 01:21 PM
05/09/08 01:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Extra points if you can jump onto the boat next to you while rounding the mark, shove the skipper overboard, steal his boat, or flip it, get back onto your boat and escape! Sort of Redneck Pirate Racing! I'm sure we could get sponsors too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Blade F16
#777
Re: Reaching & Racing - why not? [Re: Timbo] #142596
05/09/08 01:27 PM
05/09/08 01:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
IndyWave Offline
enthusiast
IndyWave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 342
Indianapolis, IN - Midwest USA...
Thanks for another GREAT idea for my version of the Fool's Regatta! Keep 'em coming!

We'll make it legal for the overboarded skipper to steal the boat of the hijacker.

Last edited by IndyWave; 05/09/08 01:30 PM.

What - Me Worry?


2006 Hobie Wave 7358
"Ish Kabibble"
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