Mary-

When I first read your comments about the "suspect" rating I didn't understand. Then I looked it up and realized the rating on the SC20 had been raised to "68" instead of "63.5". When will you know what the final rating is?

thom

Thom,
I did not write the story about the Steeplechase -- Rick wrote it. He only used the word "suspect" in terms of the Supercat's rating because the Supercat 20 has not been raced much for a number of years and there has been very little current data input on it. The rating used for this event was absolutely correct in terms of its current Portsmouth rating (as taken directly from the Portsmouth tables on the US Sailing site for the Supercat 20, 10-foot beam -- whoops, sorry, maybe it is 12-foot beam, whatever the "mod" means, tall rig) and including the adjustments for squaretop main and spinnaker. Base rating for this boat is 65.7. I'm sure Darline Hobock will be getting the results from this race and stirring it into her factor stew, but it would be nice to have more current results from this class of boat.
I think you are talking about the regular Supercat 20, which has a base rating of 68.

Hey Mary-

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't see the normal "TR" after the SC20.

thom

I'm know Bill and crew are good sailors so it leads me to believe more in that rating for the SC20TR. However, I know that standard SC20 is VERY tough to beat on corrected time. I've got a friend who owns one.

The thing has nearly the same sail area, same length, same weight, and is nearly 4 feet wider than my 6.0 but it's rating is a 68 compared to my 62.9. Go figure. However, the rating for the SC20 quickly drops as the Beaufort increases as that extra beam comes into play - but most regattas just use the DP-N which does give it an advantage.

Hey Jake-

Guess what I have been grinding gel coat off of the last two days??? I'm going after that handicap next year... I'm tired of that P#57.8 my ARC22 has.

thom
FMS SC20 57

Hello Jake

One of the underlying assumptions of the Portsmouth system has been negated and that is why the rating for the Supercat 20 is inaccurate.

The assumption is that the class of boat being rated is being sailed competitively. The idea is that a group of competitive sailors will figure the boat out, maintain the sails in competitive shape and compete against other classes of comparably skilled racers. The elapsed time data will allow the class of boat to be rated accurately relative to its peers. The Supercat 20 is not been actively raced in 2002 nor has it been actively raced for the last 20 years.

The recent data used to calculate the current rating has been collected from a small number of casual racers competing in small local regattas using the original sails. I don;t know when this boat class has conducted a nationals much less a one design event. The problem is that the latest data points have gradually supplanted the 20 year old data. The old data was used to compute an accurate Portsmouth rating. Portsmouth used to rate this class of boat as faster then a classic tornado. Usually this is not a problem because few competitive sailors choose to rehab these old designs and spend the cash for new sails etc etc. (When was the last time you saw a Prindle 18 with new sails competing at a major event.)

The monohull Portsmouth fleets face the same issues. Sailing World had an article several years ago describing how Dennis Conners took a 20 year old phrf boat and put a top of the line bottom job along with new sails and good hardware, and dry sailed the boat. He cleaned up in the San Diego PHRF fleet. We all recognize that handicap racing has this limitation.

Darline H has asked me and another sailor several months ago (well before the steeple chase) to look into this quirk in Portsmouth, collect some information and propose some solutions. Since I have put the boats away for the winter, I should be able to get going.

One solution that I am considering proposing is to sort the boat classes into two divisions, Competitive and One off or inactive. I would define those classes that are competitively raced as those conducting a nationals with at least 7 boats in attendance within the last 2 ?? years. The Portsmouth calculation would remain the same for these classes of boats. We must change the method for updating the one off boats / dead boat society classes of boats. We would not continue to routinely update the database which has lead to the observed drift of Portsmouth ratings upwards. Instead, the ratings would be frozen at levels which accurately estimated the boats performance relatively to its peers in the past.

Another proposed solution is to not let Portsmouth ratings correct upwards? If a boat class earns a rating of 61.0 then the only thing that poor equipment or sailor skill can do is degrade the boats performance and raise the rating number, however these corrections would not be accurate and unfair to competitors competing against the sailors of these types of boats.
I am very interested in any critiques or comments.

Thanks
Mark Schneider

Mark,

I'm going to start a new thread on the subject.

Given the results, I'm surprised that nobody is complaining about the rating for the Tornado...

Hey Keith-

I don't know what the new Ts weigh do you? Also there has to be taken into consideration the crew on that boat. Some guys are really good on a particular boat and some are OK. I'm in the OK group...

I know my ARC22 weighs 467lbs w/o sails so having a big spin or main/jib doesn't equate into beating everyone thats on the water. The M20 really pays a penalty for its power/weight
ratio.

thom

I don't know the T's weight either, I know they're not the lightest of the breed, but certainly not the heaviest. But the crew on the boat is the point, too, right? If the boat has that potential, why isn't everyone crying about the T rating now? It's funny how some things are foregiven (of course we were beat by a T with an Olympic crew!) and some things are not (What? A fixed-up SC-20 beat us on corrected?).

If anybody knows how to sail an SC-20, I'd guess it's Bill Roberts. We've had two of them in our Fleet (current one is a tall rig, original jib config), as well as a 22, and even though on paper the rating looks like a gimme, our Fleet results don't show it as an automatic win, which is what people seem to think it is. Not that our Fleet is the last word... But they are heavy boats, some things are outdated, and unless you can take advantage of the beam results seem to be a mixed bag.

When the new numbers came out this year and the 22 rating dropped I thought to myself "Roger is going to have a tough time with that". He responded by sailing better, and put in some great races.

Handicap racing is a mixed bag. Some of the Supercats would seem to enjoy favorable ratings, but I don't think they're so skewed they guarantee trophies. Some of the things they're looking at will probably help. The people that complain too much about it shouldn't race handicap.

Each year the rating for the Hobie-18 seems to creep down. When I win a race in my Fleet I sometimes wonder if I'm just making it harder for myself next year! Maybe I should "sandbag" a season so my rating will be better the year after...

Yea I follow what you're saying. Once Roberts told me that as the ratings drop the mistakes you make on the course intensify expontentially. He's right about that. When you're rated so much lower than others and the boats weight and beam width don't come into play as an advantage you're basically ....

Some say you're buying a win when you sail a fast boat [ let them pay the money that one of these fast boats cost and see if winning is worth the cost] while they pat someone else on the back for winning on handicap with a H14. But when you sail both [fastest and oldest] and you go for the handicap to win some don't like it.

Its almost as if they are trying to stop the fast boats from competing...actually they just about have in some areas. I can remember seeing several SC/ARC22s racing in some areas where now there's not one entering much less racing.

thom

Mark: We are trying to change that. We now have a collection of four SC-20's in our group. We added two this year. Hobie Fleet 141, Columbia, SC at Lake Murray. Same fleet Jake sails with. Problem with the boat is that only one of our members is gonna trailer his boat to sail elsewhere. Two of the owners are older and not into traveling to race anymore. Bottom line, if you know anyone who actually wants to race his SC20 on equal terms, we now have a place for them to do so at Lake Murray.
Check out our website at www.seacats.org
we also have a number of fun races not listed on our annual racing calender, So any SC20 owners can just contact the commodore David Mosley through the website and get our schedule. (This years schedule is still in the works)
CARY
NACRA 5.5SL

Hey Cary-

Thanks for posting that site. I have a 1980 FMS SC20 or Formula Racing Team 20 as it was called originally before the "Supercat" label was applied. Seeing #5 made my heart sing with old memories. I have had to 1980 boats both made before the Boston whaler sale...

SC is a long way from Dallas, Tx but it might be worth it to come and see how I do on mine after I refinish it.

Also both my boats had the "F" on the main sail just like #5.

thanks again,

thom
FMS SC20 #57
ARC22 #2234
F25c 009

Hey Thom, I emailed David Mosley for the 2003 scedule when it becomes available. I'll forward it to you when I get it. My crew and I are going to do a little traveling this year and hit some cool regattas and plan to go to Lake Murray to a regatta to sail against other SC-20's (too cool) I bought my SC-20 from David Mosley a few years ago and got to sail on that lake and it is magnificent. Can't wait! Get your boat ready and maybe we can plan a little caravan to Lake Murray.
Don Caldwell
SC-20 #92 "VERTIGO"

Hello Don-

Its got to be closer the SC than Key Largo... If they leave the P# alone we might be able to show up a day late and still place... How big is your barn inside? I need to put bottom paint on my F25c. It spreads out to be 20' wide and about 27' long. I have jack stands. The paint I have has to be kept 65F and above for the whole process from wet to dry. The SC20 has all the white and most of the tan off the port hull. . I'm going down to the glass on both hulls and then we'll spray lp paint.

thom

Hey Thom, My barn is 26' x 18' so right now I'm limited to beach cats and small mono's. I just finished refinishing a Sunfish and I'm working on a friends Miracle-20 (he ran his bow through another Miracle). Finances permitting, I plan on building a 60' x 40' shop later next year(2003). That might be a good winter project next year. Look in the paper for buildings or warehouses for lease, you might be able to rent/lease one for a month or two to complete your tri. When I refinished my Supercat, I ran into wet and cold weather problems so I rented a climate controlled storage unit (30' x 20') for 60.00 a month and completed my boat there.
Don C.

'yall come on over! I'll be glad to put the 6.0na against the supercats! (great club, great lake!). I'll race you for line honors - not on corrected!

I'm game!!! Lets do it! I'm just waiting on a schedule of races. What regatta would you recommend?
Don Caldwell

The Tommy Whiteside Memorial is a good one but it is early in the season and has a tendency to be a bit cold. I doubt we would get all the S-cats out there. Perhaps Cary can get in touch with some of the other owners and we can pick an event to be a Super Cat revival! I'm sure David Mosely can help us figure that out too. I may bi$ch and moan occasionally about the Super Cat rating but I think it's an awesome boat.

Hey Don-

I can wait until there is a three day stretch above 65F and do it outdoors. It only takes about an hour to get it up on stands. Probably two hours to clean whats there off. LWL area is about 70sqft. Then its apply the EP2000 at one coat per day x2 and a third coat around the waterline. Basically a three day job. How long to paint the 20 after I get it down to the glass??I will bring the paint want to use.

thom