Macca: what was your combined crew weight? IIRC the guys on the Polish cat where very light.
What route did you take around the island?

No, we really don't.

One of the best things about the F16 class is the independent mindset of its members and the class board. The fact that we can afford to be that way, surely says something. We've always done things differently and this is no exception. When members feel the desire to do Texel then perfect, the more power to them, but the class is not going to force this on members/sailors/agents.

Also we don't "want to be taken seriously", we ARE to be "taken seriously" !

There is a difference there. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

It is a copy without being a direct copy of the Capricorn mast. Nacra didn't do any research or pioneering in the area of wingmast. They waited to see how the Capricorn did with the alu wingmast and when it did well (= world champion) they rushed to get one true wingmast on their F18 themselves.

At least AHPC had put in some 20 years of experience and testing into their wingmasts for it to result in the Cap F18 mast; starting shortly after the Italian Sori mast (Lalo Petrucci) introduced the idea into the cat market. The F16 class of course, recognized the superiority of the wingmast immediately and never made the detour involving teardrop shape masts like some other classes. In fact the F16 class arranged a deal with AHPC in the first year of class existance to have other F16 builders use this section against cost.

Also removing the internal rib from the mast is not a major design step. The benefits of the wingmast are the result of its elliptical leading edge and its width to cord ratio.

With regard to F17 weights; I have my ways of inspecting official measurement certificates. By now you should have noted that I don't make UNSUPPORTED claims; goes against my character ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

So what does the certificate you have seen say? I can tell you for a fact (recurring theme here) that the F17 has not changed in weight at all. I built the boat in question and know this to be true. I am right now sitting next to the guy who made the sails and we know what we did. You are full of [censored] if you claim otherwise.

You need to get off your little pony and try checking out the real world for a change. Its actually a pretty good place <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh and while we are in the real world, how well did the F17 go against the F16 at Texel? proof is in the results hey...

Again, for the record: I think F16 is a great idea but there are some issues that need to be sorted before it really hits the spot. one of those issues is the marketing and market position. Sort those out and you will be a long way to making it work.

We were bang on 150kg for the race, there were a few Polish Exploders out there, none of which were very well sailed but they did light up a few times (not enough though)

We stood on under kite on Port for a fair while after the VC mark to take advantage of the tide, I took a stb ride back towards the shore to lock in the boats that were to leeward of us. We made good gains there but Gunnar stayed out there longer and made even more. But I was happy not to be too greedy. It was a risky strategy to get so far offshore from the fleet. Once we came back to the fleet we worked the smaller shifts and tried to stay near the front edge of the new pressure that the slower boats were bringing down with them. We made a lot of places keeping in the pressure as it built.

How about you? a lot of boats went to the shore and got hammered...

Just back from Texel and now my name in a thread's name; guess I have to reply.
Anyway, the round was not too bad for us. Had a pretty good start, close to the shore and almost free air. Still had my problems with light air upwind, as long as both hulls are in the water (with a bit of chop) we're just a tad slower than most F18's. Have some work to do on that part.
Just noticed that the ones who tacked early to the shore made better progress, the worst decision was to leave our good, clean air position, go to the shore, find out you can’t cross the fleet, and notice the wind is getting betting better on the sea…

Downwind was a bit better, could keep our position more or less and when returning to the Northsea we got an unexpected but very welcome 12-18 knots, upwind. In these conditions the blade is pretty fast so we could get some 20 boats on that part. Very exiting finish lot’s of cats close together and a gusty wind, and everyone tacking quite often to stay close to the shore for the better wind. So at the end place 141 out of 500 starters. Did enjoy it, good weather, light wind, strong wind, current lots of thing to play with.

Some other things noticed; did see the Viper that was at zandvoort, now sailed by Paul Brouwer. Guess he did pretty well downwind, he passed me on that part.

Remco Kenbeek was indeed sailing an Marstrom A-cat, with spi. He put an existing (probably F18) spi on it and went pretty well (37), despite it was his first sail on an A-cat.

As for being expensive, do think the subscription is quite reasonable at 100-110 Euro for a four day event, as Tony pointed out. And there is a lot to be done to get this race organised.
I know one day events here which are at 65 euro’s.
Sure the ferry makes it a bit more expensive. In my case it was 50 Euro’s (did move the mast a bit forward before entering the ferry, makes it a bit cheaper)

You can do your stay the way you like, there are lots of hotels etcetera but also cheap camping’s pretty close to the where it happens.

Geert

Would you care to mention were the other F17's/Inter-17's ended up relative to the F16's ?

Or are we sweping that under the carpet ?

And yes there was more then 1 F16 crew at Texel. The crew of Brouwer and Hof (sailing a Viper F16) beat Ruesink and Haas (on a 2007 Blade F16) to the finish. And a German skipper, who has recently taken delivery of a new Viper F16, was sailing F16 1-up.

Personally, I think Fawcett and Dobie sailed an excellent Texel race to finish at 25th place overall on handicap. Getting 25th place overall is an achievement no matter what boat type is sailed. We note that the line honours winner is (only) 24th on handicap with an upgraded (custom made) line honours boat. Also they tweaked out a win over Sproat/Burke who are typically at the top of the "shorter hull" boats listing of Texel. So my congratulations to them.

As always I feel the credit goes first to the crew and only second to the boat type.

And I don't feel the F16 crews did a bad job at all (see the elapsed time listing below). In comparison they are in the top.

And just to make the picture complete and to show I have no fear of "real life" results I present everybody the elapsed time listing of the modern 16 and 17 footers. The handicapped order is actually very much the same. In total 9 FX-ones, 4 Inter-17's, 3 Spitfires, 3 F16's and an impressive 2 F17's.


-1- Fawcett/Dobie [color:"red"] Nacra F17 [/color] 4:28:41
-2- Sproat/Burke [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 4:28:51
-3- Brouwer/Hof [color:"green"] Viper F16 [/color] 4:45:32
-4- Ruesink/Haas [color:"green"] Blade F16 [/color] 4:50:11
-5- Aart Hobie [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 4:54:04
-6- Houting [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:10:40
-7- McDowell/McDowell [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 5:11:44
-8- Smit [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:15:32
-9- Areosa/Lima [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:16:42
-10- Maat [color:"red"] Nacra F17 [/color] 5:19:08
-11- Nakken/Schagen [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 5:31:08
-12- Brink [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:35:31
-13- Carstens [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:36:09
-14-Brouwer [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:36:23
-15- Boomstra [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:37:36
-16- Duin [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:40:51
-17- Dorfner [color:"green"] Viper F16 [/color] 5:43:08
-18- Jong [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:55:10
-19- Os/Leeuwen [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:58:16
-20- Graaf [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 6:09:50
-21- Bergen [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 6:17:35


I hope all crews enjoyed themselves alot and I congratulate all on their placings.

Wouter

So how did you go Wouter at Texel? You have mentioned recently on this forum that you have won big races in big fleets, so this would have been right in your park then...

tell me how did you go in the recent Tornado worlds?

Ummm, don't sail Tornados. Never even been on one for a race, just tooling around every so often between races etc.

You have mixed me up with one of the other Aussie sailors that Wouter doesn't like. Sail A-Cats and other various sailing vessels, but my results are crap according to Wouter.

Post deleted by Tornado_ALIVE

Great result Macca.

27th Scratch and 12th on handicap.

A lot of F18s there and looks like very close racing between them.

Hey Stewart,

You do not know the circumstances behind the Worlds result. We were lucky to even be on the water (Crew injury) and decided to pack up on the second last day.

The crew / boat owner shipped his boat over to NZ without a skipper. I was heading over to NZ anyway so offered my services. Due to a back injury, he was in no shape to take to the water despite regular physio during the event and being doped up on pain killers, however he persisted for most of it with myself doing most of the work on the boat whilst he struggled to just get in and out on trapeze.

Trapezeing and steering downwind in up to 25 knots amongst a reasonable size fleet was quiet interesting and I would have to say, some of the most enjoyable downwinds I have experienced. Having the tiller cross arm at the leeward end come apart whilst I was on trap heading downwind was also very interesting. Working the main by myself for the 2 events is something I can do without though...... Especially when the mainsheet would not grip in the ratchet.

Very disappointed with how it all unfolded, however better than watching it on shore. I feel more for Stuart who made the trip from the UK only to struggle each day to get out on the water.

We where a bit heavier at 176KGs <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
On the first leg to the lighthouse we decided to stay a bit further of the coast than you guys (about 1 NM).
During practice the day before this was the place with the most wind and seemed to pay of as we
overtook quite a few boats who where very close to the beach.

After the VC we went way too far out to sea, this is where we lost a lot.
It would have been wiser to have stayed with the rest of the fleet and put in some more gybes instead.

I see you where using the track-and-trace system:
http://spectator.sport-track.com/spec/start.php?id=4701&raceid=7961

Actually I was making a point about your comment..

Its easy for someone to make snide comments about sailing ability or lack.. It however doesn't detract from the efforts of Wouter and others in developing the F16 class..

Umm.. and why is this being posted? I made no comment or innuendo about you or your sailing.. Interesting this medium of communication that allows someone, to believe comments made, were not directed to the one I posted to but to themselves..

But your correct I don't know the circumstances you or others faced in the T worlds... Anyway glad you enjoyed some of the racing...

And now for some meaningless stock market drivel.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Its Adrian Fawcett..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hey Wouter,

Any news on that mysterious measurement cert that shows the F17 lost 25kgs??

Someone at Muiderzand has an (uni)F17 (with the Infusion stick) which he IIRC had weighed at 135KGs.
He does have PBO rigging and a carbon pole so that might make it a bit lighter than the standard version.

Macca: Do you know under which rating they where sailing? I cant find it anywhere and I dont think F17 rig has been added to the TR database.

The F17 is a 104.

If you swapped the Wire for PBO then there is about 3kg saved, if you did trap wires too then its a bit more saved.

A Carbon pole is going to be a kilo or 2 lighter but its nowhere near a saving of 25kg...

But Wouter will for sure supply us with irrefutable proof that the F17 has somehow lost 25kgs <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Back to F16 subjects, does anyone know the weights of the boats that competed at Texel? Maybe if they were heavier than the F16 rating they could have got an advantage from re rating under the texel rating?